 | Posted by: | Leslie, Mrslormann@aol.com | | Subject: | Pulled Baby Now-mine-HELP!! | | When: | 11:02 PM, 12 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.102.21 | | Locked: | This discussion was locked by a moderator. |
I just took home a new, i mean NEW glider today. As I was ATTEMPTING to feed him I started to wonder why he was even away from his mom. His eyes are closed and he has very fine hair. He hates to be left alone and always wants to be with me. I didn't think he was warm enough by himself so now he has a safe heating pad nearby. If I wasn't so afraid I'd crush the little dear I'd sleep curled up with him. I'm tempted to stay up all night with him and try to feed some more.
I know these animals are a lot of work and I'm willing to do it, but my heart is breaking watching him reject formula (puppy from syringe) and whine to me. Any and all advice and prayers are greatly appreciated. Sorry for the xtra long message.
Leslie
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| Posted by: | emily, suprtrip69@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:31 PM, 12 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 12.75.179.78 |
have you tried the links page on this website? i am sure that they have the info you need. look for info on orphans or hand feeding.
| Posted by: | Judie, RichJHausmann@cs.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:45 PM, 12 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.207.181 |
Why was this little one taken away from the parents? Chances of it's survival are almost zero! At this age they have to be feed drop by drop. It is refusing the puppy milk because it does not smell like his mother and he is crying because he is hungry. It is inhumane to take a baby from the parents at this age. Babies should not be taken from the parents unless the parents have rejected it and even then parents usually do so for a reason. Is it possible to return the baby to the parents?
| Posted by: | Eva, glider_house@hotmail.com | | Subject: | good luck | | When: | 11:48 PM, 12 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.24.34.132 |
where did you get this glider!!!!!!!!!!!Ooooooo mmmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyy gggggggggoooooooosssssssshhhhh!!!!!! gliders are not supposed to be weaned untill they are a month old. If your gliders eyes are still shut it was born or out of pouch for only around one week ago and by your description sound like even earlyier! which is wwwwaaaaaayyyyyy to early. this baby needs its mommy! I would have a HUGE WORD with who ever sold the baby to you that early. what did they say to you when she sold the glider to you? your baby need to be kept warm and feed often. but I would find a vet. fast if you don't already have one lined up. and go see the vet pronto! I would keep a very close eye on how your baby is doing. are you trying to feedthe ESBILAC milk replacer (the puppy milk stuff)? If thats all Then go get some baby PEDIALYTE and try feeding that to the baby glider. this is straight from my bible (sugar glders by Caroline MacPherson)offer the Esilac warm (not hot) through a dental syringe. mix one scoop of Esbilac to three scoops of water. Initially, you can dog Pedialyte to the formula instead of water to expedite rehydration. offer the warmed formula one drop at a time by placing it on the babies lips. Do not try and force formula into the babys mouth ot try and feed it while it is crying; the baby may inadvertently inhale the formula into its lungs and develope aspiration pneumonia, which has a high mortality rate in very young animals.feed the infant every two hoursif it is not fully furred. If it is fully furred feed every three to four hours. once the gliders eyes are open it is no longer necessary to feed during the night.
the baby has a very short attention span. it will often drink a few drops of formula and then lose interest. this does not mean that it is full. put the baby down for a few seconds and then try feeding again. you might find that it's interest is renewed. Eventually the baby will feel full and will stop feeding. the milk in the joeys stomachcan be seen through the skin, as a lighter area in the gliders abdomen. If the glider developes diarrhea feed it straight Pedialyte every other feeding untill the diarrhea dries up. do not confuse diarrhea with merely soft stools. Soft stools are acceptable, but they should not be liquid. keep in mind that gliders urinate and defecate from the same orifice ans so the stool may be accompanied by urine. If the diarrea is still present after 24 hours, consult your vet. immediatly. If there is blood in the stool consult your vet. immediatly.
At least twice a day, stimulate the baby to urinate and defecate by gentaly strokeing the area between the base tail and the cllloaca with a moistened cotten ball or swab. it is nolonger nessesary to do this once the babys eyes have been open for about a week.
ok that was from the bible hope it helps!
remember your the mommy now..... good luck hun!
| Posted by: | Leslie, Mrslormann@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:12 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.105.152 |
I really appreciate the immediate responses! I knew this would be a great place for advice.
I have posted a picture of the baby for ya'll to see him. He is sleeping well now and stirs and scratches a little when I disturb him.
The green towel is over a low watt heating pad as mentioned. He is accepting more and more food actually without fussing too much. I agree with the Pedialyte as he seems quite dehydrated (the skin test). So I'll get on that.
The breeder said this is the time she always "pulls" them and he will be fine if I feed every 4 hours. I've made that every 30 mins. now. She is licensed and has had these along with a whole zoo of animals for several years. I'm not defending, just informing. I think he is WAY too young to be away from mom now that I have spent time w him.
Yes, mom is available, but won't she just turn around and resell him to someone else the next day?
I have mediocre experience raising baby animals and I'll wait this one out. Don't expect to sleep much though. Gonna go check on him. He still needs a name.
Leslie
<a href=http://hometown.aol.com/mrslormann/YoungGlider.html>http://hometown.aol.com/mrslormann/YoungGlider.html</a>
I'll update the pic, too.
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:24 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
By that picture I would say that your glider is less then a week old and probably only a few days old. He hasn't even opened his eyes yet! If I were you I would demand that the breeder take the baby back and let the mom nurse it until it is old enough to live with you. It is very important that the mom takes care of the baby because it is waaay too young to be away from its mom! If the breeder doesn't take the baby back then you will have to continue to hand feed it puppy esabilic or marsupial milk replacer every hour until he is weaned, and that could be more then a month of no sleep for you. Good luck with the little guy, please keep us updated!
Angie
| Posted by: | KarenE, KarenElfrank@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:27 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.195.203 |
After seeing the responses you have already gotten, I was not going to reply until I saw the picture of this poor baby.
There is no doubt that this baby was pulled from it's mother possibly even before it detached itself from her nipple.
This is one of the worse possible cases of cruelty to animals for the sake of greed! While you did not (I pray) know this baby should not have been separated from its mother for at least another 7 weeks ... the breeder definitely did.
This is obviously a common practice with him/her.
Make no mistake ... and DO NOT DEFEND THIS BREEDER ... this person should be reported to the USDA AND SPCA immediately.
No one with these credentials should be allowed to breed and sell any animal.
This baby is precious, but I would say it will be by the grace of GOD that it survives. I know you will do all that you can but this would be a challenge even in the hands of a veteran glider owner.
Good luck and please, please keep us posted.
| Posted by: | summer | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:52 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.195.179 |
Sorry Judie, normally I would agree with you, but it's like she said in an earlier post, if she returns the glider to the breeder so it can be nursed by it's mom, what is to keep the breeder from reselling this baby to someone else who didn't know it is too early to be taken from it's mom?? I agree with everyone that this is an outrage and this breeder definitely needs to be turned in. My prayers are with you, Leslie and your little baby. You seem truly dedicated to helping this little innocent victim and I applaud you for your efforts. Good luck and keep us posted.
Summer
| Posted by: | Kerry, gryphon214@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:43 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.104.189 |
Does your breeder by chance breed birds as well? Or has she at one point in time? I ask, because it is common practice with birds to pull them from their mothers before they are weaned for handraising, to establish a better bond with humans. Along with this, bird breeders will often let people buy unweaned babies so they can wean them themselves. Handraising really does make bird into better pets, however I can see NO redeaming value in raising a sugar gliders this way!!! And people have been doing this with birds along time, the nutritional needs of baby birds and the proper feeding schedules and methods are proven, etc. This is definatly NOT the case with glider!!
Birds imprint, but even a wild caught, adult sugar glider can bond closely to a human! But perhaps your breeder thinks she needs to do this so that her gliders bond better. Does she usually pull then and handfeed them herself or does she always pull them and sell them immediately? I sincerly hope that this is why she does it and that she is not just doing it so her glider can babies more often!
Kerry (with Jack and Gus-Gus)
| Posted by: | Kerry, gryphon214@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:50 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.104.189 |
Just a though, maybe a crazy one, but if you are worried about the breeder re-selling your baby you could convince her to sell you the mother and father as well? Just a though, since, if you report her to the USDA she will probably be forced to get rid of them anyway . . . And once your baby is weaned, if you have not become attached to the parents as well, I'm sure you can find them a good home with some of the people on this board, or by posting it on GliderNet.
I'm no expert on this, does anyone know if this would work? Or would the stress of a move cause the parents to not take the baby back?
| Posted by: | Ellen | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:55 AM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.204.24 |
I am not sure if the mother would take it back to nurse. It has been a little too long I think. Can you get the baby to the vet and see if he can get some fluids subq. in him?
I agree he looks like he is only oop a few days and still on the teet.
I would be worried about the mother accepting him back as her scent has probably left the joey. And the chance of him reataching are not good.
BUt it sounds like you are dedicated and I am sending prayers you way.
| Posted by: | Leslie, Mrslormann@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:36 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.102.49 |
Thanks again for all the positive (minus one)responses. He slept really well with the warmed blanket from five until about 10 this morn. I woke him up and he was, or course, ready to eat. He is, much to my surprise, eating the formula from the syringe very well. It's great to see his little belly all full. Also new for today is the waste. Liquid waste is coming out after feedings so that tells me that at least something is going in.
As for the breeder... Yes she raises birds, along with chinchillias, chipmunks, mice, squirrels, hedgehogs, frogs-I guess any exotic animal she can find. I really don't think she sees anything wrong with selling early. She has 3 breeding pairs. Scary, huh? Maybe she just needs to be educated. I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. I can't see how anyone would do this knowingly. I'm calling her now. Keep ya updated. Thanks again.
Leslie
| Posted by: | Lin | | Subject: | Good luck, youll need it | | When: | 12:56 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.104.166 |
I wasnt going to post because I only ever had one baby glider that didnt make it. But, I just had to after reading all of these other posts. Your baby is very young and fragile. I understand your situation with your glider since I bought mine from a bad place too. I didnt know this before I got her. You might want to get advice from a few people around here that are very experinced with them. Is this your first glider? Please dont give up on this little one. Id try everything that I could for this little one, I hope you do the same. If it means no sleep or buying the mom. Whatever it takes. I wish you and this little baby all the luck and prayers in the world. My little baby didnt make it. I hope that you have better luck than I did. 
| Posted by: | Dawn, capriceb@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:56 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 12.4.177.226 |
My Lord, I can't believe someone took this poor infant from it's mother so soon! I am sick to my stomach over it. I agree with the suggestion about seeing if the breeder will allow it to stay with the mother 7 more weeks, then back to you after it is properly weaned. If you've paid (so it will come back to you), and the breeder is willing to do this, it's the best bet for this little one's survival, IMHO. If you have to keep hand-feeding, read up on the marsupial replacer milk and get some ASAP. Brisky's sells it, and they will next-day mail it to you. Good luck, to you and to this poor little tiny baby.
| Posted by: | Lu, frufru33@hotmail.com | | Subject: | Poor baby! | | When: | 12:59 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.146.216 |
Oh, Leslie, I really hope your baby makes it. I PRAY it makes it! May God give you strength to be able to raise this baby replacing it's mommy! It seems like you're doing your best. Please get the book and keep on researching. Keep us posted!
| Posted by: | Cynthia, w8w8b6nb@coastalnet.com | | Subject: | Baby glider | | When: | 1:25 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.92.83.176 |
You can contact Clara for some glider milk replacer which would be better for your baby. I agree I would like to see that breeder lose their license over selling a glider so young. I wish that you had known better before buying it and promoting this practice. I would feed this little one more often than every 4 hours though and that way you may be able to prevent the dehydration. Take it to a vet for some sub-q fluids to help it get back on it's little feet. I wish you all the best and hope that no one else bashes you for trying to do your best with this little one. I agree with Ellen that it has probably been away from it's mother too long to be re-accepted.
| Posted by: | AKs, kackie@bellsouth.net | | Subject: | none | | When: | 3:34 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 209.214.119.168 |
OMG! He is not suppose to be away from mom for a while!Do as Barb tells you!
| Posted by: | Courtney, Lil fitz28 | | Subject: | OMG!!! | | When: | 3:45 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 198.236.248.42 |
Leslie, i talked to you last night and was giving you advise from Istant messages. I just saw the pic right now. And I am at my school! THAT BABY IS WAYYY WAY WAY WAY WAY TOOO YOUNG. I agree with everyone that says that you should really contact the breeder and ask her why she would possible give you a glider that extremely young! You should really try to find a vet fast! You can go to wwww.sugarglider.net and click on gliderVETS at the bottom of the page. They have a lot of vets listed under Florida. If you dont contact a vet soon your little baby could die! And I know from talking to you that you dont want that to happen, and neither do any of us. Thats why we are helping you. You should get the book by Caroline MacPherson. (her book is my bible as well) This book has a lot of info on Babie gliders. it should really help
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We are praying for you and your glider!
Courtney(me) and Skyler my glider:P
| Posted by: | Judie, RichJHausmann@cs.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:21 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.197.168 |
The little one should have been returned last night to the breeder. You could have opted not to have a refund but could have asked the breeder to let the little one suckle a few weeks longer. Babies with their eyes open have a much higher chance of surviving than do the wee ones with their eyes closed. I find this such a shame as the picture shows a somewhat healthy baby.
The idea of moving the parents with a new oop. baby is risky. Usually stress will cause the parents to abandon babies.
I am a breeder, and I consider myself a good one. I have tried to hand feed a little one who was oop. that was rejected. It lived for four days and then died. It was very heartbreaking to watch it go down hill to the very end. But as I said, it was rejected.
For very tame babies, one does not need to pull the babies as soon as they are oop. I have some very, very, tame babies and all are weaned naturally. The key here is handling them from day one and being consistant with it. Breeders that pull earlier do so to force the females into breeding sooner as they will conceive within a few days as soon as there is no more milk to nurse with.
I find this so sad. As a breeder I find the enjoyment of having babies and being able to enjoy the parents with their little ones
as one of lifes gifts.
Too bad some breeders do not feel the way I do about raising babies.
| Posted by: | Leslie, Mrslormann@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:36 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.105.51 |
baby's still ok- eating more and more. I'm surprised how quick he picked that up, but I guess if your life depends on it...
On the breeder, Her name is Gale. Her phone number is 407-302-2924. As mentioned, she's in Sanford, near Orlando, FL. Use this info as you see fit. I have left messages with her telling her that she WILL take the baby back (if mom will have him). She has not yet returned calls. If mom will not take back I will raise him. I bought a glider because my husband wants to wait to have kids. I'm ready for the commitment. I have no work for the next 3 weeks so who needs sleep, right? This will work. . I am prepared to raise him if momma rejects.
Whatever happens with him, the breeder WILL never own another Glider or other exotic pet for the rest of her life. I will make sure she is fined and stripped of her licence, but right now I have more important things to do as you know. I will keep you updated on the breeder b/c i'm sure her other gliders will need homes and ya'll seem like the first place I'd suggest.
If mom does take him back, I am considering taking her, too. I don't even care if we bond as long as the baby is taken care of.
I really need more info on the glider milk if anyone has some. One thing that did work with the puppy milk was to add a little sugar. I think this is why he gobbles it up.
He does seem to be rehydrating. I don't care if it's not a word. He loves the turtleneck of my fleece shirt. It keeps him nice and cozy.
Thanks again for the love.
Leslie
| Posted by: | Jasmine, Spookie_Girl@yahoo.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 7:33 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 165.247.114.151 |
Leslie-
No offense, but from what I've read your breeder should have her license taken away. I've worked in 2 pet stores. At these pet stores we sold and bred HUNDREDS of animals, and guess what??? I'd NEVER recommend anyone buy an animal from one of those places. Many of them "look" nice and clean, but you don't see what occurs behind the scenes. Breeders can be just as bad or WORSE. Because they are private, they aren't as heavily regulated as pet stores either.
Your glider's breeder could own a zoo, and it doesn't make any difference to the quality of animals she sells or her knowlege (she sounds like a fool). USDA certified only means a person can sell animals, not that they are knowlegable about pet care at it or even humane. I've seen so-called "licensed breeders" who own and sell dozens to hundreds of different species who are just in it for the money. Oh, yeah they'll make you believe they're concerned or that they are practically vets, but they are no different than car dealers except they are dealing living creatures instead of automobiles (no offense to GOOD breeders and GOOD car dealers). These kinds of breeders have no interest in their animals or their customers...just the almighty dollar. From what you've said hear, the woman who sold you your glider fits this description.
FYI - there are bird breeders who do sell unweaned chicks, but a GOOD bird breeder won't sell unweaned chicks to someone who's never raised a bird. For what it's worth, this practice does NOT WORK with mammals--especially marsupials (they take longer to develop). This is why pet stores or breeders that sell dogs and cats, and even bunnies and guinea pigs, get fined or SHUT DOWN if they sell them at a younger age.
Please, Leslie: I know it's a very tough choice and you are attatched (I would be in your situation, too), but I implore you to return the baby to the breeder and demand your money back. Or at the least ask her to keep him with his parents until he is weaned...then sell him to you (if you are interested in "rescuing" him). If he survives without his parents' care, he there's a very good chance he will die a painful death when he gets older because he did not receive the proper nutrition for his little body to develop. Please think carefully about it...
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:15 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.162 |
Am I to assume this is one of Gail mind's Glider babies? As you all know I wholeheartedly agree this glider is far too young, their eyes open at 7-10 oop, so you figure how old this little on is. I will also tell you chances are survival is slim to nil, even after weaning, into puberty, which is where we are are seeing many of the problems. Leslie, you can not put it back with mom, as mom will reject it, As for the breeder, you can tell her I said this is no longer an acceptable practice, as it was 5 years ago, the health ramifications are far too risky. Hand pulled joeys and rejecetd joeys are not topping the galvanized wire/nestboxes, in the self mutilators. Leslie, my heart goes out to you, and you have the prayers of many here. Many breeders have no idea what happens to the joeys like this after they sell them, as too many of the owners feel they didn't do something right, or that it was their fault the baby didn't make it. Please under no circumstances allow yourself to feel ANY guilt, if this one follows the others. Caroline macPherson also states in her book that the chances of a baby that is rejected BEFORE their eyes open rarely make it, and she has been doing marsupials her whole life.
| Posted by: | alex, atfortney@bellsouth.net | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:21 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 209.214.124.129 |
that totally stinks! I know that all of these
wonderful people that responded above will be praying for you and so will my friends and I will too.
as for advice, I am new at the sugar glider thing, so I have none other than to listen to the people above and pray
goodluck!
Alex
| Posted by: | Robin, 4dbirdie@bellsouth.net | | Subject: | none | | When: | 9:10 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 208.61.135.2 |
I cannot begin to express my outrage at his breeder! I am praying for you and your little baby...:)
| Posted by: | Leslie | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:51 PM, 13 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 63.178.179.22 |
Baby's still doing fine. He is LOVING the pedialtye. I'm gearing up for another night full of naps. Last night he woke me up once for food. All day I've been able to beat him at it. We'll see how tonight goes. I have not seen a decline in health. He still crawls around me looking for food when hungry and falls asleep when full. I have not seen a great increase in his health, however, although I don't expect anything to really happen other than his eyes opening. He is getting stronger in his climbing and recognizes the syringe as a food source. He grabs it with his little hands and licks liquid out.
The breeder finally returned my calls with a message at 9:30pm saying not to call after 10:00pm tonight. I called her at when I got the message at 11:00pm. No answer. She's lovin' her caller ID about now, I'm sure.
I'm going to call her early tomorrow and come over whatever she says. I still want to try the real mom. I know she's best for him and I'm worried about his nutrition and immunities she should pass on.
At what age do they open eyes? I know I read here 7-10 oop (that's DAYS right?) That will be our next big landmark. Until then we'll just shoot for getting up in the morning, afternoon, evening, and about 100x inbetween. 
I just put him back to "bed" so time for sleep 4 me!
Thank you all,
Leslie
| Posted by: | Barb, blooprints@yahoo.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:02 AM, 14 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 63.178.69.103 |
Bless you, Leslie, for trying so very hard to be a good mom. I pray your wee wonder makes it; although its chances are slim, miracles are always possible. It sounds like you are doing the best job you can. It is probably true that at this point the mom would reject her joey, not recognizing it....I implore you to turn this breeder in to the BBB, USDA, SPCA, state attorney general. What she is doing is downright shameful and she ought to be crucified. It is insane for anyone to sell a joey so young....Didn't you ask the breeder why she was selling such an obviously very, very young baby??? No animal that has not been weaned and eating on its own should be sold! I wish only the best for you: You will definitely need it. Do continue to keep us posted.....(If this wee wonder makes it, it will be totally bonded to you and you'll have a very special glider. I truly hope you can beat the odds.)
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:31 AM, 14 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.120 |
Of all the glider owners I know, There are very few, that I would trust a joey so young with, Maria, has taken Leslie under her wing, and I believe this little man is gonna make it, up until his eyes, open, his chances are slim, however; I feel much better knowing that someone experienced and successful at this is helping her directly. My prayers and love to both of you..
Leslie, you know I have faith in the fact you are trying the very best you can, I pray for the day. the two of you celebrate your first year together. Hang in there girl, the fight has just begun, don't give up faith and confidance, that you will pull him through this. Your little man, may never know the support unit he has pulling for him..
| Posted by: | Skyler, Lil Fitz28 | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:42 PM, 14 Dec 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.197.78 |
Leslie, I am sooooooo glad to hear that your lil man is doing so well. I think everybody in this post respects you for what you doing; keeping this youngster alive and trying to beat the odds. Bravo, Leslie....bravo! I pray for you and your lil man. If you keep this up he may just survive; with you as his mother. I am so excited every time I see the new news, but I also am very nevous everytime I read, thinking that maybe the lil man has given up hope. Leslie, please dont give up. You have heard this before in the previous posts....but never give up hope and confidence. YOU CAN DO THIS! YOU REALLY CAN! It might be some hard work and it really depends on the glider but from what I have read you guys might just make it. I really think that your glider is thriving to stay alive and is trying to cooperate with you. Well I guess I would too if i knew that I was going to grow up with such a wonderful mama like you! Keep informing us in the gossip! And dont give up!  
---------------------
Words of incouragement....
Courtney and Skyler
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