 | Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | health concerns | | When: | 3:20 PM, 26 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.131.200 |
Hi
we have recently found blood in our sugar gliders urine. took sample to vet and it looks like there are calcium crystals in her urine. recently started using modified leadbeaters with the rep-cal, could this be the problem? is she getting to much calcium? we feed her mixed veggies iams kitten chow apples grapes honey a varity of berries, and modified leadbeaters and some nuts. any info would be greatly apprieciated she won't eat meal worms. thanks
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| Posted by: | KarenE, KarenElfrank@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:11 PM, 26 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.193.42 |
Did you tell your vet what diet your glider is on while she was there? This is very important information he/she should have. It could be a diet problem or something else. Make sure you give this information to your vet - call back if you need to - they are usually happy to talk to you - that's what they are there for.
One thing I would do immediately, is eliminate the cat food. Also only use the nuts as a treat - no more than one or two a week. These are extremely high in fat.
Please let us know what your vet tells you. It could be very important for another glider 
| Posted by: | Mary, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Rep cal | | When: | 9:53 PM, 26 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.81.42 |
Have you been adding rep cal or anything like that to your foods? Which leadbeaters are you using? Bourbons has a lot of calcium so if you were adding any more calciym to it then it could be too much...also which veggies do you feed? The calcium to phosphorus ratio should be 2:1
I agree with Karen...catfood is not good for gliders...and nuts are a very rare treat. Also honey is too sugary by itself.
| Posted by: | Rocki'sMom, babygirl@ccp.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:55 PM, 26 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 216.60.86.99 |
I your glider is not getting enough phosphorus then the amount of calcium in some leadbeaters may be too much.
| Posted by: | Rachel2, SugarGMommy@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:23 PM, 26 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.105.179 |
Did they put you on any meds? Baytril is a glider safe anti-biotic that works on Urinary track infections(crystals in urine). While the diet should be looked at closely, medical action should be taken at the same time. The crystals will get worse and worse if not treated. Crystals are painful as they are microscopic crystals and make little cuts in the urinary tract which is the reason there is blood present. Please let us know what meds your vet put your glider on. I am curious. Thanks
| Posted by: | Rachel2, SugarGMommy@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:25 PM, 26 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.105.179 |
OH! I forgot! Next time you take your glider to the vet for a check up ask if you can take a look under the microscope at the crystals. It is quite fascinating. One kind looks like pyramids and the other kind looks like quartz shaped crystals. I love to look at those under the microscope. It makes you appreciate what your glider is going through for sure.
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | please | | When: | 1:12 AM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.230 |
First a couple of questions.
1. How old is your glider?
2. What diet were they on prior to the one you have now?
3. How long have they been on the current diet?
The Bourbon's modified leadbeaters diet plan is intended to be fed with fruits and veggies with insects or an insectavore feed. with the eextra additions of the cat food, kitten chow it very well may be too much calcium. The kitten chow in itself is NOT recommended for gliders as it is. Kittens require for more calcium than a full grown cat does, but there are other reason that Caroline MacPhearson told me about. as she does use the science diet ct food but only in smaller amounts. As others have said the addition of "dusting" the foods and insects also is adding much too much calcium to their diet.
If you decide to use the cat foood please. follow Carolines diet to the T and don't deviate from that, I myself have heard of the controversy about catfood causing intestional blockages and kidney failure. I have seen the reports on that but it has speread through the glider community. Caroline has used Catfood as an added source with no problem,
If you choose to use my diet plan please also use it as it is intended. There is higher amounts of calcium in the leadbeaters in oorder to balance out the most common fruits and veggies that MOST owners offer their gliders. Please find one diet plan and stay with it, as you learn more about them.
To read more about the diets, the contoversy and other diets as well please try this link.
<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugarglider/dietc.html>http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugarglider/dietc.html</a>
| Posted by: | Toni, gliderlover@yahoo.com | | Subject: | calcium levels in Iam's Kitten | | When: | 12:06 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 206.29.135.160 |
Iam's Kitten food (dry) contains 1.19% Calcium and .95% Phosphorous. I doubt it is the cause of a calcium overdose when fed in conjunction with B's modified leadbeaters.
And as for the studies on the intestinal blockages, the only study that has been located was done on cats. Any information on a actual study done on gliders or other animals would be appreciated by all. I believe that use of cheap cat food as a major part of a diet will cause this, but not within just one or two months. Try a few years. It builds up in their system, thats how the blockage occurs. There are better sources of protein of course, to avoid even a chance of it.
Doubt dusting of insects is going on in his diet, as he says they won't eat mealworms. If there is no insects in his diet, cat food would make up that portion pretty well. Course, insectivore fare would be better.
| Posted by: | Jim | | Subject: | poor Gliders | | When: | 2:06 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 128.255.99.21 |
This is in response to rachel's response. I am not sure why they would put the glider on baytril. If the glider is not positive for (pathogenic)bacteria, then it should not be on it. If it is for prophylaxis, then perhaps (depending if they are prone to infection after urinating blood, which I do not think anyone is aware of). But the problem is the blood from the crystals (probably some type of calcium crystal, such as calcium oxalate). If she is providing anything with calcium, whether supplement or any food high with it, just cut back. Another comment on Nuts. I feed my girls a few nuts a night, but the danger with the nuts is the fat content, as too much fat can cause them to get fatty deposits in their eyes and possibly blind. Luckily, I caught this early and monitor their health closely. Thanks!
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 2:21 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.124 |
so even if the catfood only has 1% calcium it very well be that the added is too much? well they haven't been back to respond to the other questions. could it be possible that the other diet was extremely high in calcium and it also was dusted with calium suppliment and just not caught? Also baytril seems to be the med of choice by many vets as it is a safe anti-biotic is there another that some may not be aware of ? the problem is there is so little known about these guys, just as penicillin was once use as a safe antibiotic with humans?
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | curly fry | | When: | 4:17 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.156.213 |
Thank you everyone who wrote to help me with curly fry. We have had her for two months. She is 6 months old, is on the same food the breeder was feeding her except for the leadbeaters. I don't put any rep- cal on any of her other food. The vet said she was getting to much calcium and to cut back, they did not need to put her on any meds. They want to see her back in a week to check to see if the crystals have cleared up. I will be hitting the pet stores to see if i can find the insectivore food instead of the cat food. Does anyone know if petsmart or petco carry it? I also want to get a better varity of veggies into her, any ideas? We are also getting her a friend next week, there is a little female available from the breeder we can't wait to get her. I truly apprieciate your help thanks Beth
| Posted by: | Rocki'sMom, babygirl@ccp.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 4:34 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 216.60.86.123 |
I order the the zoo fare feeds through a local Mazuri dealer. I don't think any local pet stores carry it. You can go to Mazuri's website and find a local distributor. May I ask what your leadbeaters mix consisted of?
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:31 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.156.104 |
I have been using bourbon's modified leadbeaters, and she loves it. I think she would rather eat this than anything else....Beth
| Posted by: | Rachel2, SugarGMommy@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:03 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.197.33 |
Baytril is used for urinary tract infections involving crystals in dogs. When a glider has crystals and baytril is a safe antibiotic I would assume that the vet would put the glider on it. i was asking whether it was put on it or not.
Just cutting back on calcium will not cure any kind of calcium crystals.
| Posted by: | Mary, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | beth | | When: | 6:14 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.82.179 |
Beth I got your email and tried to reply to it...it came back to me as a unknown email..could you send me another message please?
Thank you,
Mary
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:17 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.129.9 |
Mary I cant figure out what is wrong with my e-mail it's not working right when i go through outlook express... Beth
| Posted by: | Jim, dr.goodnight@att.net | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:25 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.75.99.144 |
In respect to the antibiotic issue and Rachel's last comment, I am not suggesting that simply cutting out the calcium will cure the problem. I was simply suggesting the antibiotics will not do a thing for it as well. It is designed to kill bacteria that may pose a threat to the animals life, not latch onto the crstals and "sweep" them out the bladder and urinary tract. As far as giving it to dogs for crystals, same thing applies here as well. It is simple for a vet to prescribe antibiotics when it is not needed, just like your family physician would for a viral infection. Why do you think we have antibiotic resistance(s) going on?? As far as proper treatment, who knows. I know we want to comfort them as much as possible, but this shows that we have much to learn about them. I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but just simply stating the facts. I think with all of the advice, the gliders will come out just fine!
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | veggies | | When: | 6:25 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.192 |
Beth the leadbeaters is setup to be used with the most common fruits and veggies that most glider owners feed their gliders.. corn, peas, carrots, watermellon, apples, and grapes. although there is such a wide variety out there, the best advicee I can think of is try it. anything and everything, what they won't eat one night, they may another just like people. I remember when we were trying tfind the different things we had everything in our fridge, we could have been poster kids for a food store. Was she not ating much of the veggies? some gliders don't care for them, i suggest the peas and corn for starts , most like those. and try different things to go with them. Good luck.
| Posted by: | Mary, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Beth | | When: | 6:50 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 204.30.62.129 |
Beth I will not post my ebntire email here...so email me again when your is working. One thing I did wnat to say is this.
You said she loves the leadbeaters and thats great...the leadbeaters is high in calcium so it is balanced by the veggies that are higher in phosphorus. Was she maybe just eating the leadbeaters and nothign else? Gliders will often pick their favoorite food and eat all of it until its gone..they proceed to eat this way. they may get full before they get to the veggies. If you notic she is eatign a lot of one food then try cutting back or offering at different times. I offer my leadbeaters about 2 hrs before the fruit and veggies because my glider loves the fruit and veggies so much he will ignore the leadbeaters. you may have the opposite problem. Try offering the fruits and veggies first...then after a whiel add the leadbeaters. That might help if she isn't getting variety. I don't think the catfood has caused any calcium problems but many believe it can cause other health issues. You may want to competly remove that from her diet...or offer very little. Hope that helps some.
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:01 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.128.21 |
The last few entrys on the subject of the baytril, concerned me enough to take her to another vet. She deals with only small exotics, she has an appointment tomorrow morning. My vet said nothing about infection, I love my vet, she's great with my other animals, but I don't want to take a chance. thanks again Beth
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | another vet? | | When: | 10:47 PM, 27 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.142 |
Beth by far there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion, I am sure, as jim said the reason she didn't prescribe the baytril, is because there may not be an infection present yet.. I am sure she seen the crystals. However are you in a place where you have more than 1 glider knowledgable vet? that would be so cool, there are many places they still have to drive a hundred miles for one.
Also while you have her there have her do a fecal exam for internal parasites if one wasn't already done. Good luck and let us know.
| Posted by: | Dawn, capriceb@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:07 AM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.4.177.226 |
Hi Beth. Just want to let you know to watch for your glider biting himself -- I'm not trying to scare you or anything, just be aware and listen. Gliders are known for biting at irritation/pain, and the tiny scratches caused by crystals which were mentioned in an earlier post could be painful when he goes potty. Our Petey made a horrible pained/fighting cry when he did this (definitely not a "normal" sound) -- if you hear it, get your glider into an e-collar to keep him from biting and allow him time to heal. Again, not trying to scare you -- I don't want to get slammed for being a scare monger -- just want you to be aware and prepared. Since we caught our Petey early and got him into a collar, he is alive and well today. Feel free to e-mail me direct if you'd like. I am working up the directions to make a homemade e-collar, which I will post here when they are done, but I could talk you through it if you need one in a hurry. Take care, and good luck to Curly Fry (cute name!).
Dawn
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | curly fry | | When: | 12:06 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.156.6 |
We went to the vet this morning, she took us off cat food and put us on Kaytee exact (cockatiel diet or parrot diet). She also told me to use less calcium in the leadbeater's and add tofu for one of the jars of chicken baby food. She said everything else we were doing was fine. They also put her on antibotics, and want to see her back in 10 days.
Thanks again for your help.....Beth
| Posted by: | Jill, skibuny1@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:26 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 209.218.161.65 |
I am glad that Curly Fry is OK!
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 2:18 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.157 |
LOL I am not going to get into this so as far as I am concerned, the others that read this PLEASE for the sake of your glider PLEASE research the diets.
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 2:52 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.157 |
Dawn, I know they didn't find crystals in yours, but that is so true, people need to realize that any problems concerning urinary, intestional blockage or anals may cause self mutilation. By the way have the blood tests come back from him yet? has the levels went down? Is he still without the collar? The last I heard he was doing great and was without his collar. I sure hope that is still the case.
| Posted by: | Toni, gliderlover@yahoo.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:11 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 206.29.135.160 |
Bourbon, what exactly is the Ca:Ph ratio in your modified leadbeaters?
Knowing this would certainly help ppl decide which veggies/fruits should be fed with it, and what should not.
| Posted by: | Mary, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Bord food | | When: | 8:43 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.80.84 |
Why on earth did your vet tell you to use birdfood? I would deffinitly take out the catfood..but I would not replace it with a bird diet. Did they say why they did that??
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:58 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.129.126 |
Hi Mary
I'ts not like regular bird food, it's like kibble, and smells like fruit.....Beth
| Posted by: | Mary, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Hrm | | When: | 9:13 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.80.84 |
Well I don't know anything about that..do you know the ingredients. Did your vet say why you should feed it?
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 9:25 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.156.22 |
Mary
14% protein
ground corn, ground wheat,
oats, dried whole egg, dried beet pulp, soybean meal, corn oil, corn sugar, wheat germ meal and the rest of the ingredients are vitamins and minerals. I told her that curly fry really liked the crunchy kibble, and she suggested this.
She said with the leadbeaters and other fresh fruits and veggies, that this would be a good diet for her......Beth
| Posted by: | Mary, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Ahh | | When: | 9:33 PM, 28 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.80.84 |
Ok I see you specificly were looking for a kibble food. I thought maybe your vet recommended that as a neccesary part of her diet. Thank you for helping me out..I huess I confuse easily! Does she like the new food? Is she feeling any better? Please do keep ys up to date on her condition.
| Posted by: | Dawn, Capriceb@aol.com | | Subject: | late answer Bourbon... | | When: | 6:19 PM, 30 Sep 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.198.44 |
Yep, Petey is still doing great, no collar needed. He hasn't had the follow up tests yet -- vet said she wants to wait at least a month or two to give him time to fully recuperate, unless anything comes up in the meantime. He's eating like a little pig, active and affectionate as ever! Boy are we glad he made it through that scary stuff!
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | Petey | | When: | 4:10 AM, 01 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.145 |
I am so very Glad dawn, I have a woman that wants an e-collar so she is prepared just in case. Petey has been through a lot and now that the worst is over I would love to have his success story for the self mutilation page, I have all the emails wher we have collaborated on this but I need not just the medical end but also the personal end, you know the part you felt, that I can't do, if you wish I vcan send you the files you have sent me, and we can get a complete story.. Give petey an extremely large kiss and hug from us, and know that we are there for you... a big hug goes to you as well.. as you all are always in our thoughts.
| Posted by: | curly fry, b_jones100@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 1:37 PM, 01 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 12.74.130.211 |
Hi,
Curly Fry is feeling much better, she's back to her spunky little self. She does like the new kibble edition, and we tried mealworms again, and she loved it. We got our new baby last night, she is so sweet. They haven't really bonded yet, but they did check eachother out, with no major problems........Beth
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | Curly Fry | | When: | 12:14 AM, 02 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.48.198.246 |
you may also want to speak with your vet about this article
<a href=http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0NAH/2_29/53929987/p1/article.jhtml>http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0NAH/2_29/53929987/p1/article.jhtml</a>
and there is another link on the technical q-soy
the one above was written april of last year the one on the other was written may of this year.
| Posted by: | IrishCreme | | Subject: | Curly Fry | | When: | 8:54 PM, 03 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.71.57.146 |
Please do not replace a jar of chicken food with tofu.
The research behind the BMLeadbeaters diet shows that the values in the given diet would change dramatically with the substitution. Therefore making the diet unbalanced - unless other adjustments are made to compensate for the new nutritional values.
Also, please read over the article that's been posted for information concerning soy based products.
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