 | Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | Technical Q - Commercial Feeds | | When: | 3:52 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.217 |
If soy beans are bad, then what about the fact that Briskeys has:
"Solvent Extracted Soybean meal" (second ingredient)
"Ground roasted Soybeans" (fourth ingedient)
Also another thing that worries me is the second ingredient "Pork by-product meal" that sounds pretty gross to me.
Thanks,
Angie ;)
|
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | It is gross !! | | When: | 4:04 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.217 |
In fact I was sent a list of links to check out, we have already been trying to break down the ingredients for the commercial feeds.. After reading the links anything that says by products gross me out. now as far as the soy, what we are finding that it seems to be the norm in almost all petfoods. so I guess thee first thing I will do is post the links I have been sent.
I will say that Maria has already sent an email to purina regarding the soy issues and is awaiting a response from them. And that Mazuri has been used in zoos for MANY, MANY years. as it is a zoological feed. So while she is working on that we can then discuss the other issues. I do want to say.. i do have people that want me staying up all night researching lol.
<a href=http://www.nexusmagazine.com//Petfood.html>http://www.nexusmagazine.com//Petfood.html</a>
<a href=http://www.api4animals.org/default.asp?ID=79>http://www.api4animals.org/default.asp?ID=79</a>
<a href=http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/7360/food.html>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/7360/food.html</a>
okay for starts, the first thing I want to say, is I AM considering the source of these articles. So it is still something we are continueing to research. I told you Angie we were about to bring up an issue you will be involved in..this is it..
so let me give peeople a chance to read, and then we shall let the discussion begin.
| Posted by: | Moderator | | Subject: | Rules for Discussion | | When: | 4:15 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.217 |
This Discussion was opened to help us all better understand the various ingredients of most commercial pet foods. So we can make educted decisions on which one we chose to use.
Opinions count but. lets try to base them on facts, websites, articles. Things of substance, personal knowledge etc.
Feelings also count regarding how you feel about certain issues. If you are speculating lets say that, use words like I would think or I believe or in my opinion as this may very well get to be a controversial discussion. What we don't want to see is "this will happen just cause I think it will". Tell us WHY you think it will.
Lets try to keep it so hopefully by the end we all have some idea as to an understanding regarding the various feeds and what the ingredients mean. We are all in the learning process. Let's all learn from each other.
| Posted by: | Kim-/B2, Gliderlove@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 4:40 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.164.5.93 |
Haha cool! I have the first 2 links in my bookmarks already! I have known about the "Pet food poisons" for a few years now from back when I was working at our Humane Society here..but now that its posted on a glider board it makes me really wonder what gliders on processed foods are eating. I remember when I was in 8th grade and learned about by-products, icky I became a picky eater after that.
I did try out the Briskys, but since they sent me a batch of bug-infested accu-feed(and decided to let me figure it out by myself) that turned me off so my gliders dont get anything(besides bugs and mice) unless I make it or eat it. Seems like too much soy in Briskys anyways..second and 4th ingredients. Sheesh!
| Posted by: | Kitara | | Subject: | Briskys | | When: | 4:53 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 63.15.139.218 |
Well any company that cant back up there product with fact I have a problem with. I have been researching brisky glider food for a few days and breaking down there ingredients. Yes I question the soy and corn, as well as the pork, but there is more to it then that. There is also the issue of the type of eucyluptus used and the clay binder. Soy and corn have both been proven to not be very digestable. As for pork by products well this is my opinion: Have you ever heard you are what you eat? Well what do pigs eat? They are fed basically everything nothing else will eat. How can that be healthy to the pig and if the pig is not healthy then how can it produce healthy flesh, bones, or any part of the body? So basically another unhealthy product in the feed.
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:13 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Sorry I meant that the pork by-product meal is the third ingredient, cant have two second ingredients, LOL 
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:15 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.199.49 |
Just a brief note, I've written to a second person at Mazuri (he made a post regarding their ferret food on acme exotics board). According to his post, Mazuri has been producing zoo feeds for about 25 years. I still haven't recieved a reply, but will let you know when I do. Dehulled soybean meal is the 4th ingredient, soybean oil is the 6th ingredient, ground soybean hulls the 21st ingredient. Zupreem Omnivore has Soybean meal as the 3rd ingredient and Soybean Mill Run as the 4th. Insectivore Fare had no soy, but the 5th ingredient is Dried Bakery By-Products, the 8th is Fructose Sugar and the 9th is Corn Syrup Solids. Since I haven't had any dietary related problems in 7 years, I don't plan on dumping the Mazuri just yet. I'm hoping their nutritionists will have some good answers for me. 
| Posted by: | Mary/Beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | zoofare | | When: | 7:06 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.82.3 |
Ok which one is the zoofare? Is it on your list Maria? Someone recenlty asked me about zoofare...is it also called Mazuri or what?
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:33 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.195.191 |
Zoofare is Insectivore-Fare according to what I read. Mazuri is Omnivore Feed. I did hear back from Mazuri regarding the soy, I'm waiting for permission to post the letter here.
| Posted by: | Pockets, tinytracks@cac.net | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:41 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.90.50.104 |
Beck
Insectivore-Fare
<a href=http://www.zoofood.com/insectivore.shtml>http://www.zoofood.com/insectivore.shtml</a>
Mazuri
<a href=http://mazuri.com>http://mazuri.com</a>
| Posted by: | IrishCreme | | Subject: | Bakery By-Products. | | When: | 10:50 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.71.85.89 |
ok all... I live a few miles from a plant that processes the bakery by-products into commercial feed. (And let me tell you - just driving past it makes me hungry... til I remember its not a bakery!)
What they do is RE-process bakery goods (and I belive cereals also) that have expired. Not all foods that have just expired are unedible - the expiration date is a "guaranteed
fresh until" date - AND companies give themselves a fair amout of lee-way where these dates are concerned.
I believe (and can probably find out for sure) that they basically recook and melt down everything - which in turn kills any bacteria or other nasty stuff. Then they reconstitute it into an edible feed for pigs, cows, ect...
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:55 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.195.191 |
Really, I'm glad to hear that at least some of the bakery products get reused. Here in CO, Rainbo Bakeries takes it to their outlet stores. If it still doesn't sell, they rip open the bags and throw them in the trash. We used to be able to pick up the bread and stuff and drop it off at food distribution sites, but with the recent change in management policies, it is back in the dumpster. Such a waste 
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:53 PM, 19 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Maybe since we have a lot of complaints about the commercial feeds, can anyone tell me what they feel is good about these feeds? Do they outweight the bad stuff? Personally in my opinion, none of the commercial feeds available are acceptable nutritionally speaking for sugar gliders. Most of them are safe like the Mazuri which is made for a whole ton of animals, but it is not made specifically for the sugar glider. I dont see any ingredients that impress me, and personally I dont understand how they choose the amounts of vitamins and minerals to put in their feeds. How can all omnivores need the same vitamins and minerals. Thank you everyone for replying to this post, please keep it up. The more info about commercial feeds that can be brought together, the better chance we have of understanding and deciding if they are suitable for our beloved pets.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 4:02 AM, 20 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.195.211 |
Actually, I have no complaints about Mazuri. I got my gliders almost 7 years ago and was given the usual diet (cat food and fresh fruit). That lasted for maybe 2 weeks while I checked with my feed store and got the nutritional statements of lots of different Mazuri feeds. I chose the Omnivore because it had the best nutritional breakdown for gliders (in my opinion). When the stories of HLP came up people weren't sure if it was selenium related or calcium related. Mazuri had selenium and it had a good Ca/Ph ratio so I kept it and have never regretted my choice. I like using a pelleted feed for a couple reasons. One of course is convenience, if I'm not here on time, my gliders have a nutritious food that they will eat. 2, I feel it is a safe way to be sure that all trace vitamins and minerals they need are there consistently in food I know they can digest (ok, I'm checking into the soy). I can also honestly state that in almost 7 years, I am HLP free. I still have my original gliders (Richie, Thelma & Louise), they are all 3 happy, healthy gliders who have never, ever been sick. I've never had gliders self-mutilating and I rarely have mothers eating babies. Since all 3 of these problems either are, or can be related to dietary lacks, I figure Mazuri has an excellent track record.
| Posted by: | Rocki'sMom, babygirl@ccp.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 7:21 AM, 20 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.60.86.109 |
I give the Mazuri as a free choice daytime food. I use bourbons leadbeaters and all the goes with it at nite, but keep the Mazuri in the cages at all times for day time eats and snacking. I haven't had my gliders that long, but so far it seems to be working. The breeder I got my first girl from has had her gliders for almost 4 years I think and she feeds Bourbons leadbeaters and the Mazuri and she has very healthy beautiful gliders, so there must be something to be said for the Mazuri. ;)
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 1:06 PM, 20 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
I have to say that by far I believe that Mazuri is the best choice of the commercial feeds. Again it bothers me that it is not made for sugar gliders but for a wide range of omnivores. Those who know the ingredients well maybe can help me figure something out. The third ingredient is "porcine meat meal" I am confused as to what this is? Maria please keep us updated on your search for answers about the soy in this product.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | John Derek, jdg716@yahoo.com | | Subject: | Just a thought... | | When: | 4:01 PM, 20 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 204.48.27.130 |
Has anyone emailed mind about this? How does he feel? Does he care? Please let us know.
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 4:54 PM, 20 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.192.28 |
Porcine meat meal is another way to say Pork. I'm still waiting for permission to post the reply I got about Mazuri and soy.
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 2:10 AM, 21 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
I hope that you will get permission Maria, I think we should know what we are feeding our pets (well not me, but many others). I'm disappointed that porcine meat meal is pork, but I knew not to expect anything better. I dont understand why pork is so often used in sugar glider feeds. I would never feed my sugar gliders pork so why would anyone want to feed their gliders pork by-products? So my personal concerns with the available commercial feeds would be:
Mazuri:
soybeans in the feed: dehulled soybean meal (4th ingredient), Soilbean oil (6th ingredient), ground soybean hulls (20th ingredient)
animal products in the feed: porcine meat meal (3rd ingredient), flash dried blood meal (8th ingredient), fish meal (22nd ingredient), animal fat preserved with BHA (25th ingredient)
Sugar glider Accu-Feed:
Soybeans in the feed: Solvent Extracted Soybean Meal (2nd ingredient), Ground Roasted Soybeans (4th ingredient)
animal products in the feed: Pork By-Product Meal (3rd ingredient), Animal Fat (preserved with BHT and Citric Acid) (7th ingredient)
other things that I personally worry about: Dextrose (5th ingredient), salt (11th ingredient), eucalyptus, what kind??? (12th ingredient), Mineral Oil, leaches minerals (40th ingredient)
Zupreem Omnovire:
animal products: Poultry-by-product meal (2nd ingredient), Animal fat (preserved with BHA, Propyl Gallate, and Citric Acid) (9th ingredient), D-Activated Animal Sterol (22nd ingredient)
soybeans in feed: Soybean meal (3rd ingredient), Soybean Mill Run (4th ingredient)
other things that I personally worry about: first ingredient being ground corn, iodized salt (11th ingredient)
Insectavore Fare:
Animal products: Meat By-Products (1st ingredient), Fish Meal (2nd ingredient), Shrimp Meal (3rd ingredient), Vitamin A Acetate with D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of vitamin D-3) (20th ingredient)
other things I personally worry about: wheate flour (4th ingredient), dried bakery by-products (5th ingredient), fructose sugar (7th ingredient), corn syrup solids (8th ingredient), salt (15th ingredient)
Anything anyone else wants to mention? The reason I mention the animal products in each feed is because they are very low quality and I personally dont feel that they are suitable in our gliders diets.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 4:32 PM, 21 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.192.51 |
Any type of meat meal like fish meal, porcine meal, beef meal, chicken meal is just meat that has had the fat and moisture removed, not the prime cuts, but not necessarily total trash. By-product meal is made of guts, feet, heads, etc. the parts that people don't generally eat. The main reason people don't feed pork to gliders is that pork can carry disease unless fully cooked. By the time it is a "meal", it has been fully cooked and processed and is unlikely to carry any type of disease.
Without the animal products in the feed, it contains less nutrition overall. I would never feed an processed food that didn't contain animal products. Gliders aren't vegetarians and I feel that feeding a pellet that contained no animal protien would be unhealthy for them.
| Posted by: | Mary/Beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | pork and beef | | When: | 9:24 PM, 21 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.81.67 |
I will not feed pork or beef because of the parasites. However when they are grounded into the pellets there is no way a parasite can live in there...they are crushed and ground and dried...basically processed.
So I don't feed because of parasites..but thats not an issue in here...so why wouldn't you feed them in this form?
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 9:36 PM, 21 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
I dont see pork as being a good food for sugar gliders regardless of it being safe from parastites. The only reason I mention animal proteins in my last post is because I dont feel they are suitable in the commercial feeds. I agree that animal protein is essential in an omnivore feed, but the kinds and quality is important to me. I think that a more suitable protein source would be chicken meal or turkey meal. Beef and pork are not my favorites considering the high levels of phosphorus compared to calcium. Also pork and beef can often be very high in fat.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 5:34 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Quoted from Deborah McWilliams: (PHD student from University of Guelph, Veterinary College, Guelph, ON)
"Sugar Gliders are what it is called "specialized feeders". Their physiology (including their digestive tract) have evolved over hundreds
to thousands of years to survive on an insect/exudate diet. When you think about it - that is a VERY specialized diet. They are not
omnivores. People, dogs and pigs - who can eat and use everything whether it is meat, vegetable, fruit, etc - are omnivores. Can Sugar Gliders adapt - extend their physiological capability - to
other environments and diets? Yes, within reason. To what extent we don't know because we lack research. My research with Leadbeater's (who
are also insectivore/exudate feeders) indicates that omnivore-type diets (especially those high in animal protein and fat) create health problems
and interfere with breeding success."
This should help some understand why sugar gliders should not have too much animal protein in their diets. They are NOT omnivores, but can survive with some animal protein in their diet if they need to. Deb wrote a published article about the leadbeaters possum and she knows a great deal about sugar gliders.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 7:00 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.199.173 |
Of course as you noted above, soy which is not an animal protien is a major part of most commercial feeds. As for the quality of pork meal versus chicken or other meat meal, what I was able to find indicated that meat meal is typically 50.5% protien to 10.1% fat with 8.5% calcium and 3.7% phospherous. So, the CA/Ph ratios are right and of course the meal is mixed with vegetable and grain which lowers the protien and fat amounts in the food to an acceptable level. You need to look at the overall nutritional breakdown of the food, not just the nutrition in one or two ingredients. Insectivore-Fare actually has more meat protien than either Mazuri Omnivore, Zupreem Omnivore, or Briskys, and yet it is specifically designed for insectivores. And of course, that doesn't take into account the extra insects, fruits and vegetables that are fed with most of the dry feeds. As far as I know, only Briskys claims to be a complete diet with no other foods needed, all of the other dry foods are fed in combination with fresh foods.
| Posted by: | IrishCreme | | Subject: | re-infestation | | When: | 7:28 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.71.86.44 |
Just a side note on parasites -
The meats as they are being processed for the feed are cooked/baked to the point of killing all active parasites that may have infested them initially... BUT what about after the product is cooled? Ive no doubt as to the infestation possibilities being high.
And please consider the fact that many, many parasites are veggie feeders also. Not to mention the parasites used for insect control in the agricultural industry. So the possibility also exists for infestation there.
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:51 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Thank you for pointing that possibility out IrishCreme. Maria, I do look at the overall nutritional breakdown, and I am still not impressed. I have been studying soy a lot and I also think that it is not a good for soy to be in the feeds. I have stopped feeding my sugar gliders tofu, though I hated doing so. Its always better to be safe then sorry. I would have to say that I will never recommend any kind of feed used for sugar gliders because in my opinion it isn't worth the risk. No matter how good a feed sounds, you can bet that it has its problems. I very much dislike the insectavore-fare because in my opinion it isn't suitable for insectavores. Sugar gliders digestive systems aren't designed to digest meats and it doesn't matter if these are domestic gliders, they still are insectavore/exudavores and until someone makes a commerical feed that is made specifically for them by someone who knows them then why risk it? I know I'm going to stick to a fresh diet with leadbeaters mix, fresh fruits and vegetables, and insects. What else could possibly be needed?
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 9:20 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.199.156 |
Fresh foods are also susceptable to spoilage and infestation. There is no perfectly safe, unprocessed glider food availabe unless you go to Australia and gather the ingredients from the forest. It is every glider owners duty to be sure they are feeding food that isn't infested with bugs (though the gliders might enjoy a few extra bugs) moldy, rotten, or spoiled. I would never dream of forcing anyone to use a food they weren't comfortable using. If you are happy using BLM, then it is certainly the right diet for you. I, however, prefer to have a dry pellet available to my gliders and would certainly recommend Mazuri to anyone who feels that they would like to have a pellet type food available. Of the many types of pellets currently available, I feel that the Mazuri Omnivore is best suited to my gliders needs. When and if a specific glider food becomes available I would certainly check it out and see if it was better and more suited to gliders. Howerver, I will never be the first person to jump on the band wagon for every new food that comes out. I'm much too careful to switch my diet around depending on the latest fad , every new diet is supposed to be "The One", but most have problems.
| Posted by: | chrissy, crisi13@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:36 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.201.191 |
ya know there is a pet store here where I live that has a commercial food that says "sugar glider food" I am not sure if it is any of the things you are mentioning but from what I remember reading I did not like the "ingredients"
it was way expensive and the pellets where all different colors.... I will post more about it when I go back to the pet store (if it is different than anything you all have already talk about)
| Posted by: | CindyNzia, preddyfairy@aol.com | | Subject: | Mazuri and Zoofare | | When: | 10:50 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.104.22 |
I have tried both of these, and I also use bourbons modified leadbeaters. I liked mazuries ingredients better, and I feel that it is healthier and also lasts longer and i can use it in my sift feeder
However, i do still have a 3lb bag of Zoofare if anyone wants it..
Thanks,
Cindy
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:05 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
That would be great if you would post the ingredients Chrissy!! Also really bad was this sugar glider food (I haven't seen it for months thank goodness) and the ingredients were just dried fruits, vegetables and lots of nuts. That was it, and that was what they called a complete diet.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:23 PM, 22 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Maria,
I know that fresh foods do spoil and thats why it is important to cut up only fresh fruits and vegetables and only leave them out for a certain amount of time to prevent spoilage. I use leadbeaters but not BML, I have a mix I feed but its not called leadbeaters. Its called "Sugar glider mix" for the animal I made it for. But its still being tested and researched, and I have a habit of making little changes often (like removing the tofu). I cant change your mind Maria, and I dont want to. But I want to make people aware of problems and potential problems in the commercial foods that they feed, with the help of others of course.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:09 AM, 23 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.174 |
angie, the idea of the thread is to look at the ingredients,this discussion has not yet to even begin touching them, we need first to understand and be able is disseminate between the ingredients as to what they are, what they are used for annd their purpose in the feed. This is not to say that onee feed is better than another, as each of the three main ones have nbeen around for many, many years. Mazuri, zoofare and zupreme, all of wwhich has been used by zoos throught the country. No one is suggesting that any of these three be fed as a sole diet. Unlike some of the commercial feeds.
To answer your question regarding the pork.porcine. that is because most pet foods also use those ingredients. The reason being is the mad cow disease that could potentially cause an epidemic here as happened in Britain.
now as far as by procuts vs meal vs bone and meat meal, lets see if I can explain it the wway it was explained to me.
Porcine meal is pork that has been dehydrated, on the packaging it is listed by volume first. well with straight pork, it may be listed first but the protein content would be higher in the meal without the water. if the porcine meal was listed first. The porcine meal is meat, the same meat that would be edible by people. wwereas the by products would be the livers, hearts lungs etc.. All of the above is very good protein sources. and used very commonly in pet foods. (meaning meal as well as by-products. now the bone and meat meal.. from what i understand, is.. there are 3 vats, 1 with meat, 1 with the livers hearts hooves, etc. the other for the bones and stuff. the meat and bone meal would be a combination of all the vats.
so the order of protein sources would be in order.. if i am wrong people please correct me..
1. meat meal
2. meat
3. meat by products
4 meat and bone meal
we are still awaiting a few letters regarding the soy issues, but they are very common ingredients in pet foods, at this time we are taking several feeds, finding common ingredients, and also trying to find out what is different amoung them.
Angie, the line between omnivore and insectavore is a fine one with the gliders in the wild, it is all dependant on the time of year, and the available of the insects. We mustt remember that they eat baby birds and baby mice in the wild as well. Also keeping in mind our gliders are not in the wild, there fore we have contant temps, limited activity, and their metabolism is different than in the wild. ours don't go into their tupors due to weather changes, The stress factors are different as well as the availability of their natural foods. In the wild their breeding habits are 2 times a year.. in captivity, there breeding 3 times a year for some. the breeders have found that the breeding increeased with their proteins. and other factors as well, temps, insects etc..when the gliders came here, we had very little help from the autralians, and for many years couldn't get much help regarding their diets. there has been evolution regarding their diets in Australia as well as here, it isn't a matter of them adapting to bad diets here. After all, gliders are still dying from bad diets that ws once acceptable. as we will see in these ingredients they are still many things that have yet to be tested beyound a shadow of a doubt. Soy has only been here in the states used for about 30 years, and it is already in most of the things we eat. Only will generations from now with there be an answer, ... maybe... in the meantime, to examine the ingredients to see what they are putting in the foods and why may help us all understand them better. We each have our own opinins as to what we like to eat when we go out. it doesn't mean one meal isn't as good as another, but we do know something are worse than others for various reasons. To understand the ingredients will help us better understand the foods.
Chrissy, that is called pretty pets glider food, Someone on the isga list found out it was nothing more than a juvenile iguana food. by taking the feeds that have been established for zoos, we can get a better understanding of the feeds that are supposed to be "sole diets", and if not, then at least the opinions we all will have will be based on what we are finding out.
Angie, I wanted to go back and say, Maria on her own sent letters to purina, regarding the mazuri, to find out more about it. When dietary issues come up, i also recheck the items in the BML, just to be sure. We are not above changing if something proves out to be unhealthy, but at this time wwe haven't established that anything is.. that is not what this discussion is about. it is about the ingredients of commercial feeds...
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 10:50 AM, 23 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Bourbon, the point about omnivore vs. insectavore is very much an important part of this discussion. After long e-mails about ingredients to my friend Deb, both of us feel that the omnivore feed is not suitable as a dietary extra in a sugar gliders diet. Sugar gliders very rarely eat animals in the wild and it is only in desperation for protein. It is not a normal in their diet and should not be needed in their domestic diet. I know that no one would use the Mazuri for a complete diet, but the point is that I dont feel it is suitable for even an extra in their diet. I also understand that our sugar gliders are not wild, but does that mean we can feed them whatever we feel? I know we can but it wont do them any good. Like Deb pointed out on one of my above posts:
"Sugar Gliders are what it is called "specialized feeders". Their physiology (including their digestive tract) have evolved over hundreds to thousands of years to survive on an insect/exudate diet. When you think about it - that is a VERY specialized diet."
I have already posted the ingredients that I feel could pose as a problem. I know that pork meal is used often in pet food, but do you feel it is suitable in sugar glider feed? I cant agree but thank you for explaining a bit about it. And as for soy, it is so commonly used and probably will continue to be used in commercial pet foods. Soy and other fillers aren't particularily healthy, so the feed is drowned in vitamins to make it healthy. In the end the company can post how great their products is because in the end it has a good amount of vitamins. Of course the vitamins have to be added to drown out the unnutritional fillers. I know I would very much like to hear what Mazuri has to say about their feed, maybe I will e-mail them myself. They did not make their feed to be used for sugar gliders, but since it is used, maybe they can tell me what makes their diet suitable. I know I cant find any reasons myself.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | IrishCreme | | Subject: | An Aussie Comment. | | When: | 11:22 PM, 23 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.71.85.131 |
A while back I wrote a friend in Au... asking about gliders diets in the wild. Their resonse to me was in the form of a question.
*Did I want to know the ideal answer - what we read in the books and what is generally documented as being their natural diet -
Or the truth.
I of course opted for both answers...
We all know what weve read... So I wont repeat is again - BUT -
The truthful answer I received was "They're trash-pickers".
Not pretty, but its the truth...
Gliders have been gradually pushed out of their natural habitat by OUR "progress". And many of them are now forced to resort to eating whatever it is that they can find. Therefore their diets vary as much as ours... all depending on where they live and what is available - fresh food or nasty, moldy left-overs.
Would you like to feed them their natural diet? Which one would you choose? What if you had no choice? Sure, scrape your plate right on into their cage...
A gliders diet in the wild is not the issue here. We CANNOT replicate it exactly (the healthy one) no matter how hard we try. The foods are simply not available.
We do the best we can and pray it is enough. Keep our hearts and heads open to the possibility that change is warranted for one reason or another and do what we must.
AS for omnivore vs. insectavore - There is no comparison to even be made here between the 2. Its a fact that gliders eat animal protein in the wild. They do NOT gain their proteins solely from insects. Anyone who is using an insectavore feed, should surely be adding to that diet an animal protein matter in one form or another.
| Posted by: | Moderator | | Subject: | Warning to Return to Topic | | When: | 12:36 AM, 24 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.233 |
This discussion is about INGREDIENTS of commercial feeds, it is not to say one diet is better than another, it is not to decide one diet is not nutritious, it is not to debate the gliders diet in the wild vs their diet in captivity. It is to discuss the ingredients so that we all can get a better understanding of what each ingredient is and it's purpose in the feeds. If this subject can not get on topic then it will be closed.
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 4:43 PM, 24 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.204.73 |
Ok, back to the topic, what have you found out about fish meal and shrimp meal (in Insectivore Fare). The only thing I found about fish meal indicates that it may be unpalatable in large amounts. Also, what is the purpose of the mineral oil in Briskys, I though that it was just used as a laxative. And does anyone have a clue what Ethylene Diamime dihydriodide (EDDI) is? It is also in Briskys and I haven't been able to find it anywhere.
| Posted by: | IrishCreme | | Subject: | Ethylenediamime dihydriodide | | When: | 12:02 AM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.71.85.179 |
Ethylenediamime dihydriodide = Source of Iodine
Iodine is a 'trace mineral', which means it is needed by our body for maintaining the structure of proteins. Iodine is also a key component in the formation of thyroid hormones thyroxin and mono-, di-, and tri-iodothyronine.
The forms of iodine most commonly used in animal feed are calcium iodate, ethylenediamine dihydriodide (EDDI), and potassium
iodide.
Deficiency Symptoms are -
Goiter - enlargement of thyroid gland
Mastitis - inflamation of breast tissues
Reproductive failure
Abnormal respiration
Weak offspring
Reduced growth rate
Reduced milk yield
Hairless offspring
Toxicity Symptoms -
Anorexia
Abortion
Excessive salivation
Pneumonia
Nasal/ocular discharge
Bone/tendon deformities
Mineral Interactions - Excessive ethylenediamine dihydriodide (EDDI) may interfere with vitamin A metabolism. High dietary calcium nitrate, thiocyanate, glucosinolate, perchlorate, rubidium, and cobalt interfere with iodine metabolism and can increase iodine requirements. Supplemental iron reduces iodine toxicity, but can increase iodine requirements.
DOT-Hazardous Materials (Class 5.1) include calcium iodate. Ethylenediamine dihydriodide (EDDI) is restricted to GRAS as a nutrient
source of iodine only, with supplementation limited to 10 mg/head/day. No therapeutic claims are allowed. (21 CFR 582.80)
BUT ALSO STATED - Iodine deficiency is the world’s leading cause of mental defects, such as severe retardation, deaf-mutism, partial paralysis, frequent clumsiness, lethargy, and reduced mental capacity. Iodine is an essential part of a thyroid hormone that contributes to brain development during fetal life and metabolism thereafter.
Here's a company that offer EDDI
<a href=http://www.iomatecorp.com/hitech.htm>http://www.iomatecorp.com/hitech.htm</a>
| Posted by: | Kimi, norby@greenepa.net | | Subject: | none | | When: | 3:49 AM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.117.80.151 |
um, I have a pet pig named Elvis and he wanted me to let you all know that for one he's an extremely picky eater and trash dont get it, for two pigs really arent bottom feeders. I dont know about ya'll, but seems to me that most anything with a whole lot of long chemical type names arent to very good for me how could they possibly be any good for another creature? Of course that is only my own oppinion and we all know what they say about those....
| Posted by: | IrishCreme | | Subject: | More rendering links. | | When: | 8:49 AM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 209.71.88.100 |
Just some more "food for thought"...
<a href=http://www.fuzzyfaces.com/lfood2.html>http://www.fuzzyfaces.com/lfood2.html</a>
<a href=http://www.belfield.com/article3.html>http://www.belfield.com/article3.html</a>
<a href=http://www.true-health.com/render.htm>http://www.true-health.com/render.htm</a>
<a href=http://www.groomers.com/tidbits/food.html>http://www.groomers.com/tidbits/food.html</a>
<a href=http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/02.html>http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/02.html</a>
<a href=http://www.naturalrearing.com/J_In_Learning/Diet/Food/InTheBag.htm>http://www.naturalrearing.com/J_In_Learning/Diet/Food/InTheBag.htm</a>
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:08 PM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.195.36 |
Ok, here is the reply I got from Mazuri, as you will note, the suggested diet only adds up to 75% so I've requested more info. I've also requested any info they might have on soy isoflavones.
Damn, it won't let me cut and paste so I'll retype it.
"Soybeans are an excellent feed ingredient, with a long and successful history of use in a variety of animal diets. It is true that raw soybeans contain trypsin inhibitors, which hurt digestibility (this is why uncooked beans give you gas), but these inhibitors are deactivated by proper cooking. While soybeans, or any other pulse for that matter, do not contain proper amino acid balance by themselves, they are a very good ingredient when used in combination with other ingredients. Soybean oil is an excellent source of linoleic and other essential fatty acids.
This issue brings to light a more general concern, which is that well intentioned people may be improperly influenced when people who are not trained in animal nutriton make unwarranted claims based on rumor, exaggeration or mistaken science. focusing on individual ingredients on a feed tag is usually of little value and it our experience that this is a common practice of people who do not fully understand diet formulation.
Thank you for using Mazuri Omnivore Diet for your sugar glders. When asked what to feed sugar gliders we generally suggest a diet of 25% Mazuri Primate Growth/Repro diet 5MA1, 25% Mazuri Exotic Feline Small 5M54, and 25% fruit. Please note, however, that Mazuri has NOT done extensive research on sugar glider diets and so cannot offer a firm recommendation for feeding them. The above suggestion is a reasonable place to start, but we have not done any large scale feeding trials to validate it. "
The above is an exact quote unless I've made typos :-)
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 6:53 PM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Eeek feline diet? I know that a lot of info about soy has been over-exaggerated, but in this case it seems like they are hiding a few things. I went to a discussion about pet foods and how they are formulated so I know about the ingredients and what why they are put in the foods. It sounds like Mazuri doesn't know much about sugar gliders. Mazuri omnovore, feline food and fruit? That does not seem like an aceptable diet. Where are the vegetables? insects? Thank you so very much for posting their response Maria.
Angie ;)
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | none | | When: | 7:54 PM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.200 |
okay maria, so we what we had discussed is why, the soy isn't a big issues.. since it is heated (brewed) it removes the unwanted junk. okay so we have the affirmation there. That also reaffirms that although wee may not be able to decide on whether the food is good or naot based on a single ingrdient.. which is not what we are doing, wwe can still get a general idea as to the ingredients in general.
Angie as far as the diets suggestion is concerned, I just recieved several pages from Australia regarding their diets in captivity at various centers. ALL of them have some type of pet food, whether it is their dog food, feline food or yes even flying fox food.
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:06 PM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.195.34 |
Actually, they aren't suggesting Mazuri Omnivore, they are suggesting Mazzuri Primate Growth with the Feline with Fruits (I suspect that fruits and vegetables are both covered here) As I said, he still left 25% undecided and I'm waiting for a reply. He also did indicate that they haven't done extensive research nor large scale feeding trials. However, he is a nutritionist with a Phd so his information is of value.
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:09 PM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.195.34 |
BTW, Irish Creme, thanks for the links to various sites showing what exactly goes into pet food. Of course if I looked at any type of food processing too closely I'd have to become a vegetarian & grow all my own food.
| Posted by: | Rocki'sMom, babygirl@ccp.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 8:56 PM, 25 Oct 2000 | | IP: | 216.60.86.106 |
Thanks so much for posting the letter from Mazuri. I found in very informative. I use the Mazuri New World Primate as a daytime snack food or free choice food and have had very good luck with it. Thanks for all this information everyone!
| Posted by: | SugarT, purplepelican@cs.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 9:08 PM, 07 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.197.56 |
Pretty Pets(www.prettypets.com) makes a "Sugar Glider Food", which I think Chrissy was referring to. It is several different colors and is fruit flavored, and lists its protein content at 24%, fat at 5%, crude fiber at 2%, and moisture at10%. Ingredients are: ground corn, poultry meal, fructose, ground oat groats, ground wheat, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, pineapple, dates, raisins, papaya, banana, and then it goes into all the chemical names of the vitamin supplements. I have used this food successfully for a year with my gliders, starting them on it as one of their first solid foods after weaning them from formula. That's all I leave in their cage at night, feeling they're getting the correct proportions of nutrients, and then in the morning before they go to sleep, or during the day when I might wake them up, they get baby fruit, grapes, or a raw peanut as treats, and sometimes a bit of scrambled egg or fruit-flavored yogurt.
| Posted by: | Maria, dmeexotics@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 9:30 PM, 07 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 64.12.104.31 |
I seem to recall that Pretty Pets just repackaged their Juvenile Iguana Food and called it glider food. 24% protien isn't enough for gliders either.
| Posted by: | Mary/Beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Pretty Pets | | When: | 12:46 AM, 08 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.80.15 |
Pretty pets was not even reaserched for sugar gliders. If you compare their glider food to their juvinile iguna food you will find the exact same ingredients. Sugar gliders and iguans are very different and have very different dietary needs.
As Maria said 24% is not enough protien..they need 33%.
Gliders can take years to develop doetary problems. One year doesn't make a diet healthy. Use a diet that is balanced for your glider and was actually reaserched and tested on gliders.
| Posted by: | chrissy, crisi13@aol.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 12:48 AM, 08 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 152.163.197.77 |
i have not been to that pet store since i posted that about the food I am pretty sure that it is the food you all are refering to as Pretty Pets, I will go there tomorrow for sure and let ya know if it is otherwise.
| Posted by: | SugarT, purplepelican@cs.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 2:50 PM, 09 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.196.46 |
The book by Caroline McPherson notes that the glider diet should contain 25% protein, as does a lot of other research I have done on the net. Can you refer me to what resource shows that 33% is required? Most research articles also say that more protein is required by the female for reproduction. To be safe, the egg, yogurt and peanuts (not too many because of fat content), I give my gliders gives them extra protein.
It is interesting that the Pretty Pet iguana food contains the exact same ingredients. The look and smell of the food is very much the same as the Pretty Bird Pellets, but the protein content is higher in the glider food. One glider breeder I am aware of has been feeding the bird pellet version as almost the exclusive diet. She has been breeding for about 10 years, but I can't say how much of that time she has been using the bird pellets. The leadbeater's contains a lot of cereal(baby and wheat germ) as does the Pretty Pet food. The protein in the commercial food comes from poultry, while the leadbeater's contains chicken and egg. A lot of foods contain the same nutrients, although in different forms.
My personal opinion is that most people wouldn't dream of going to all the trouble we do to feed our gliders, and dry dog food is considered quite acceptable by the general public and considered to be best. Why not the same for sugargliders? I want to be sure the dry food I'm giving mine is adequate for their needs, and in finding which one is best. Everyone's efforts in researching this is great!
| Posted by: | Mary/Beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | none | | When: | 3:57 PM, 09 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.83.88 |
That book was reaserched in 1996 and written in 1997. At that time many people did believe that the 25% protuen was accurate. I believe it was late 98 or early 99 when new reaserch came out showing that gliders actually ate more protien in the wild. It is now believed to be around 33%, but possibley higher.
When you see a website or book that mentions 25% please llok at when the information was written. Many many websites have not been updated in years.
<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugarglider/diet/index.html>http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugarglider/diet/index.html</a>
<a href=http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb698700&MyNum=939178245&P=No&TL=939178245>http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb698700&MyNum=939178245&P=No&TL=939178245</a>
<a href=http://members.tripod.com/~vlewis/gliderdiet.html>http://members.tripod.com/~vlewis/gliderdiet.html</a>
<a href=http://www.zen-inc.com/SGDiet.cfm>http://www.zen-inc.com/SGDiet.cfm</a>
As for the peanuts I would not even give them as a rare treat. There is a toxin found in peanuts called aflatxoin.. Reaserch and studies believe there is a link to this toxin and cancer in humans. The lab results on animals is not good.
<a href=http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/bot135/lect11.htm>http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/bot135/lect11.htm</a>
<a href=http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/AgrEnv/ndd/health/MYCOTOXINS_IN_FEED_AND_FOOD_PRODUCING_CROPS.html>http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Topic/AgrEnv/ndd/health/MYCOTOXINS_IN_FEED_AND_FOOD_PRODUCING_CROPS.html</a>
<a href=http://www.fao.org/inpho/vlibrary/x0036e/X0036E05.htm>http://www.fao.org/inpho/vlibrary/x0036e/X0036E05.htm</a>
As far as most people not willing to spend this much time on diet..well that is tottally true. Thats why so many gliders die each year. People are not willing to feed an apprpriate diet. Gliders are exotic animals and they require special care. Diet is very importiant if you want your glider to live a long happy life.
As far as comercial feeds well new reaserch is showing the cat food and dog food isn't exactly good for cats and dogs. Cats and dogs have been in the US for a very very long time...and most of the commercial feeds avaliable for them are really not that healthy...so how can you really expect a comercial feed to be adaquate for an exotic animal that has only been un this country about 10 years.
These links were listed above but I will repost them so you can see that the food made for cats and dogs isn't what we used to think.
<a href=http://www.nexusmagazine.com//Petfood.html>http://www.nexusmagazine.com//Petfood.html</a>
<a href=http://www.api4animals.org/default.asp?ID=79>http://www.api4animals.org/default.asp?ID=79</a>
<a href=http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/7360/food.html>http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/7360/food.html</a>
| Posted by: | Skyler, Lil Fitz28 | | Subject: | i HAVE TRIED BRISKYS! | | When: | 10:25 PM, 09 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 205.188.199.53 |
HI, WHEN i FIRST GOT MY SUGAR GLIDER HIS DIET WAS BRISKYS. I THOUGHT IT WAS THE BEST THING FOR HIM, I LATER FOUND OUT THAT I WAS WRONG. HE WOULDNT EAT IT! AND EVERY TIME HE TRIED HE WOULD SPIT IT BACK UP AGAIN. PEOPLE TOLD ME TO TRY THE "STARVING" METHOD BUT I THOUGHT THAT WAS CRULE. MY GLIDER WOULD NEVER HAVE A FULL MEAL, BARELY HALF A MEAL! IT WAS AT THE POINT WHERE SKYLER HAD DIARRHEA EVERDAY AND SEEMED VERY SAD. FROM THE HELP OF YOU ALL I CHANGED TO LEADBEATERS AND HE IS VERY HAPPY NOW. NOT REALLY ANY PROBLEMS WITH DIARRHEA AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, HE HAD A FULL MEAL!
i AM NEVER EVER GOING TO SWITCH BACK TO BRISKYS, YOU CAN COUNT ON THAT!
COURTNEY(ME) AND SKYLER MY CRAZZZY GLIDER.
| Posted by: | Gliderlover, Angie_nightgirl@hotmail.com | | Subject: | none | | When: | 11:44 PM, 09 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 24.65.233.144 |
Skyler
I'm so glad that you didn't end up feeding your glider Briskeys. I would never condone the use of a pellet food for sugar gliders. They are not rabbits or hamsters, they need a diet of fresh foods and insects. I think it is cruel to feed sugar gliders ONLY a pellet food because they get bored so easily. Not to mention that I feel Briskeys is not at all nutritionaly sound.
I dont like any of the commercial feeds made for sugar gliders but now I am confused about something. If pretty pets food is bad because it is only 24% protein, then why is Mazuri Omnivore acceptable. It is only 25% protein. It is disgusting that Pretty pets would take a food made for iguanas and call it a sugar glider food. The poor iguanas too, since they are vegetarian and there is meat in the pretty paws food.
Angie
| Posted by: | Mary/Beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | I think | | When: | 12:45 AM, 10 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.80.238 |
Ok angie not sure..I think Marie can answer this one..but heres what I understood. The letter from Mazuri stated that it was not a sole diet and should be feed with other food including protien. The pretty pets food is not supposed to be fed wiht other protien..I am not certain if their package describes it as a sole food or not...I do believe it says feed with fruits and veggies. Fruits and veggies have some protien but no where near enough to have enough protien for the glider. Mazuri is deffinitly not enoughh by itself it can only be part of a diet.
| Posted by: | Bourbon | | Subject: | Sugar T | | When: | 9:53 AM, 11 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.123 |
I find it interesting that a breeder of 10 years, switchs to a pelleted food, that hasn't been marketed but a year and swears by it. The long time owners and breeders knows that the ill effects of an inadaquate diet doesn't show up for a couple of years, I only heard of 1 breeder that advocates the use of pretty pets as a sole diet,. The problem with pet foods, is that there is very, very little regulation as to what is required for it to be healthy, in Fact the USDA states that with pet foods, it is a buyer beware market. It isn't tested or regulated by USDA that it be safe or healthy for that particular animal, unless that animal is for human consumtion for example, cattle, swine, poultry and fish etc..
| Posted by: | Mary/Beck, intr01dc@frank.mtsu.edu | | Subject: | Pet Pro | | When: | 3:35 PM, 13 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 12.77.81.29 |
Bourbon: are you maybe thinking of a breeder that uses pet pro, not the pretty pets. I have seen on long time breeder say to use pet pro...but as for the pretty pets I haven't seen anyone say anything good about it.
| Posted by: | Moderator | | Subject: | Bringing to the top | | When: | 5:58 PM, 17 Nov 2000 | | IP: | 216.248.35.214 |
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