<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shadow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>
<br />I love PP and Virgil Klunder is one sexy beast!
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umm...was this post really necessary? i really cant see the humor in what PP does to gliders.
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What exactly is it that they do to gliders?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by finnessa</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shadow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>
<br />I love PP and Virgil Klunder is one sexy beast!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
umm...was this post really necessary? i really cant see the humor in what PP does to gliders.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What exactly is it that they do to gliders?
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They breed tons of gliders, they sell them to people that know NOTHING about them, they give about wrong information on how to care for gliders, they sells joeys to young that should still be mom and dad, there are many reasons why PP is not liked in this community! If you search PP up top you will find why they are bad.

~Erica~

PP often sell unweaned gliders. The majority of which are inbred. Most people who buy from pocket pets lose their gliders within a year. They run up thousands in vet bills as they start to become very sick due to being inbred.
They are mill breeders so they are just interested in breeding as many as they can for money rather then keeping the gliders healthy. They keep them in TINY cages, feed them a less than adequate diet. They tell people that they are fine to keep alone, to feed them pellets and an apple slice, to use a heatrock (that are nutorious for burning gliders as they get too hot) and basically say any * to get people to buy them.

Apparently they can often be found in malls (I'm from the UK where this doesn't happen thank god) and the tiny little gliders are forced to be awake in the day time being passed around tons of people all drawn in by their cute looks and misinformed pocket pets care guide.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by StellaAnLuna</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by finnessa</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shadow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>
<br />I love PP and Virgil Klunder is one sexy beast!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
umm...was this post really necessary? i really cant see the humor in what PP does to gliders.
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What exactly is it that they do to gliders?
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They breed tons of gliders <u>PPP is a mill broker not breeder. They do not breed gliders for sale.</u>

they sell them to people that know NOTHING about them... <u>I'm pretty sure a pet store doesn't give classes on how to raise your gerbil either? </u>

, they give about wrong information on how to care for gliders... T<u>he information they give out isn't wrong. It just isn't what us as a community do not approve of. Last time I checked we weren't the end all answer to the world of Gliders.</u>

, they sells joeys to young that should still be mom and dad .... <u>This is not accurate either. PPP stopped buying from S&S Exotics and all babies are weighed and the customer now must sign acknowledging this in their contract.</u>

, there are many reasons why PP is not liked in this community! If you search PP up top you will find why they are bad. ... <u>I don't need to go by what this community thinks as they don't think for me.</u>

~Erica~
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by StellaAnLuna</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by finnessa</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shadow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>
<br />I love PP and Virgil Klunder is one sexy beast!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
umm...was this post really necessary? i really cant see the humor in what PP does to gliders.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What exactly is it that they do to gliders?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They breed tons of gliders, they sell them to people that know NOTHING about them, they give about wrong information on how to care for gliders, they sells joeys to young that should still be mom and dad, there are many reasons why PP is not liked in this community! If you search PP up top you will find why they are bad.

~Erica~
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They don't actually breed any of the gliders that they sell. They are now buying gliders from better breeders than they once did because the breeders that they were buying from had questionable practices that they did not agree with.

Did YOU know anything about gliders when you got your first one? I know I didn't and mine did NOT come from PP.

Their information is not going to kill any gliders unless you yourself misinterept what they are saying and do not follow up with reading their emails that they send out constantly.

Do you have absolute PROOF that they joey's are too young? Many times you cannot tell by we4ight or looking at them if they are as young as some people think they are. I could get a joey that looks and weighs less than another joey that is the same age.

Don't always take what you read here OR anywhere else to be gospel.

Also....just because there is a banner that say's Pocket Pets at a mall, Expo, flea market don't alwaqys assume that it IS PP. You would be amazed how many times they have been mistaken for another company that uses the same propaganda as PP does. They are PP imitators!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>

Did YOU know anything about gliders when you got your first one? I know I didn't and mine did NOT come from PP.

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Yeah, I do tend to learn how to look after an animal before I decide to buy one, or TWO in the case of gliders. Crazy right ...

Newby and Finessa are right. They are a broker and not a breeder. If you don't like a thing, you should really try to understand what it is you don't like completely before you jump and tell people things.

I don't care for Pocket Pets but I do know they aren't purchasing from one breeder who did have questionable practices. I believe there is yet another breeder that I have 'heard' isn't the best. That is just a rumor as many things are though. I feel like they are trying to have healthier animals (DON'T SHOOT ME!) I still don't agree with many of their practices!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by StellaAnLuna</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by finnessa</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shadow</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by newby</i>
<br />I love PP and Virgil Klunder is one sexy beast!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
umm...was this post really necessary? i really cant see the humor in what PP does to gliders.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What exactly is it that they do to gliders?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They breed tons of gliders, they sell them to people that know NOTHING about them, they give about wrong information on how to care for gliders, they sells joeys to young that should still be mom and dad, there are many reasons why PP is not liked in this community! If you search PP up top you will find why they are bad.

~Erica~
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They don't actually breed any of the gliders that they sell. They are now buying gliders from better breeders than they once did because the breeders that they were buying from had questionable practices that they did not agree with.

Did YOU know anything about gliders when you got your first one? I know I didn't and mine did NOT come from PP.

Their information is not going to kill any gliders unless you yourself misinterept what they are saying and do not follow up with reading their emails that they send out constantly.

Do you have absolute PROOF that they joey's are too young? Many times you cannot tell by we4ight or looking at them if they are as young as some people think they are. I could get a joey that looks and weighs less than another joey that is the same age.

Don't always take what you read here OR anywhere else to be gospel.
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I didnt know TONS when i got my first glider, because I DONT HAVE ANY GLIDERS YET, waiting two or more years! So before you jump to conclusions please make sure you know my situation!

If they are improving thats good, I am still new and i only know what i read about them on this site, so SORRY if I made some mistakes on what i said in my other post!

~Erica~

Whether PP are breeding them themselves or not they are still selling unhealthy gliders. That isn't much better. Just looking back over the past few pages on here there are SO many people who've had PP gliders die within the year. PP are just as responsible as the people they are buying the gliders from.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Helen88uk</i>
<br />PP often sell unweaned gliders. The majority of which are inbred. Most people who buy from pocket pets lose their gliders within a year. They run up thousands in vet bills as they start to become very sick due to being inbred.
They are mill breeders so they are just interested in breeding as many as they can for money rather then keeping the gliders healthy. They keep them in TINY cages, feed them a less than adequate diet. They tell people that they are fine to keep alone, to feed them pellets and an apple slice, to use a heatrock (that are nutorious for burning gliders as they get too hot) and basically say any * to get people to buy them.

Apparently they can often be found in malls (I'm from the UK where this doesn't happen thank god) and the tiny little gliders are forced to be awake in the day time being passed around tons of people all drawn in by their cute looks and misinformed pocket pets care guide.
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This is not accurate either. This is the opinion of this community of people and not based off of facts. I actually tend to hear more people say I got a glider from PPP and it was healthy over hearing of the sick ones. Does it happens? Yes of course it does just as it does with any breeder even within our own community. I know PPP if contacted and given the proper information required will help cover the fees if proven that it was at their fault. Just as our own breeders do, yet I know some that don't.

Can it be proven beyond an assumption that the gliders are inbred? Nope sure can't being you don't know who his suppliers are. The owner of PPP said himself when he attended the SGGA 2 years ago that breeders within our community supply him with babies. So would that mean our own breeders also inbreed gliders?

Once again they are not breeders they are brokers. Have you seen the extensive amount of research Virgil Klunder presented at that SGGA? Probably not being you are in the UK. I'd say someone only in it for the money wouldn't have done the extensive amount of research/testing and studies he has.

They do not tell people to just feed pellets and apple slices. Again a misconception of fact.

Can you show proof of burns to a gliders? Vet documents? Anything besides hearsay? Virgil has already put that to the test. Prove it with fact and he'd work at removing it. There is no documented proof of such a thing.

Did you know PPP recently funded a very well known rescue in our community with neuters for her rescues? Sounds like the devil to me, doesn't it to you?

I see more posts about people who do not know OR they thought they knew about gliders only to find that they were misinformed to begin with. I didn't mean that nobody did their research first, just that many people don't.

There is a difference between PP and PPP right? They aren't the same organisation

PPP and PP are 2 totally different organizations. You responded to my post in which I responded to another that was about Virgil Klunder's sexiness and the response to that. Virgil Klunder is the owner of Perfect Pocket Pets.

I thought that PP was the bad one? And the comment about Virgil Klunder mentioned PP, rather than PPP. I think this may be where the confusion started x

Glad no one has commented on the fact that this company is allowed to sell gliders in an illegal area(unfortunately, its legal to sell there, just not to own there) and bears NO RESPONSIBILITY in informing prospective owners of this fact. Sure, the new owners have some responsibility to research, but Pocket Pets CATERS to impulse buyers who might find out after the fact when their booth has left the building and they're now stuck with who could be seized(and yes, there are recent cases of this happening in Northern VA).

Why does the company not disclose this fact or screen buyers to ensure they aren't in areas where the gliders can be seized?

I listened to their speeches 2 years ago and won't attend that expo any longer because Pocket Pets is still permitted to sell there. Maybe they don't say pellets and apple anymore because they do serve "Glider Gravy" as well.

Finessa - your excuse to "the heat rock" debate is yet another to add to the the reasons we have heard recently. We have heard from Bourbon herself(the rescuer that gets cages donated regularly for them) that its because some gliders are kept in front of the AC or in a garage. Why their sales people can't let people know not to do that(because to most of us, its common sense and the garage could be a dangerous place for MANY reasons), instead of selling them, makes no sense. It would SAVE them money. Gliders do NOT need heat rocks - they are mammals and can regulate their own temperatures especially if they have a buddy and a pouch to cuddle up in. Makes more sense that they would sell them when they (used to) sell underage joeys who needed an external heat source - if they aren't buying from them anymore, why do they need heat rocks? Or why can't they pick heating pads that are on hte OUTSIDE fo the cage where gliders coudln't chew on the cord or lay directly on it?

Just because they might be SLIGHTLY better than some mill breeders/brokers, doesn't make their advice great or their practices acceptable. The only vets I've heard that support their practices are ASGV members. Those who have actually done research on them, read literature, etc. disagree with their tiny cage, heat rocks, primarily pelleted diet, etc. Sure pocket pets has improved some with "Glider Gravy" and neutering males, but that does not change the fact they are a mill broker that supports mill breeders.

Mill breeding(and the brokers that help them sell the vast quantities they produce) is a horrible practice for ANY animal.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Helen88uk</i>
<br />I thought that PP was the bad one? And the comment about Virgil Klunder mentioned PP, rather than PPP. I think this may be where the confusion started x
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Helen - most people shorten "Perfect Pocket Pets" to Pocket Pets - sometimes PP can refer to Priscilla Price. Perfect Pocket Pets is owned by Virgil Klunder and is a mill broker - they buy from a number of mill breeders and sell gliders all across the US.

According to a handful of people in this community they are equally as bad as the other. We tend to have a lot of people in this community that take someones word as gospel instead of a grain of salt. Someone mentions PP and all of a sudden the organizations all get lumped into the same.

Can someone specify which company it was to be exact? There are several that pass themselves off as "Pocket Pets" only to be known as something else on paper such as Pocket Pets of Dallas/Tropical Attitude Pets....

Well I think it's sad that a simple "joke" post has to get all heated up again.

I have 3 PP gliders so I know first hand about them. I agree with finessa in they may be trying to improve and that's great, BUT I do have to say more needs to be done. In all fairness finessa, Virgil may be trying to improve, but he really needs to work harder on his SALESPEOPLE! They are ultimately his mouth piece and they DO give false information. The guy I spoke to told me flat out that gliders do not have bones! Someone else got told the same thing and yes, I have given this info. to Peggy to give to Virgil.


And I was on their site just a few days ago because I got another newsletter. I have "access" to their "family" part of the website because I purchased my babies from them and I'm sorry, I adamently do not agree with the fact that they put in black and white that a glider can be trained like a dog and be trained to get along with all of your pets except snakes! If I could do it I'd copy and paste it here for all to see but of course you "agree" to not share this info. under penalty of law when you enter his site. But that's just one example of the half truths of flat out falsehoods that are said.

I am not close minded so I will not just follow like a sheep because that's what everyone else is doing. I'm quite capable of making my own decisions...

Were my 3 babies healthy upon my purchase? Yes aside from Kodah had roundworms.

Did I learn some useful tips and tricks for bonding thru PP website when I was first logging on and trying to learn via their instruction? Yes I did. A few tricks I still use with every new one I get.

I will not take that away from them, but do I personally think the bad still outweighs the good? Yes I do, and maybe someday that will change but for now, that's MY opinion...nothing people have fed me.

So basically at this point in time I will not purchase anything from them or do anything that could give them financial gain.

If someone asks me about getting a glider from them I will suggest a local breeder instead.

I'm not stupid, I know they will never get shut down so I do hope they continue in the right direction and get everything cleaned up. With an organization that big it will take time....heck, it'll take years to retrain the salespeople alone! But I do hope we see that in our lifetime.

I agree Jazz. Am I pushing them as perfect? No not at all. People must realize though as a business man, Virgil deals in facts, vet reports, not in opinions of people. While to some it may appear nothing or almost nothing has been done this isn't true. In the last going on 3 years they have changed the diet, added pouches, worked with their customers that have issues and come to them, the cages they sell are considered temp joey cages and encourage buying the larger in time, changed suppliers due to that supplier being below par, do I agree with everything they do? No of course not and probably never will but I do see the changes and rather than condemn them even after them as others do, I see it as steps in the right direction.

I was just like several others a few years ago. I ranted, raved, moaned and groaned and it got nowhere. Nothing changed and nothing was moving forward. That has changed and continues to change. Change doesn't always happen over night and tbh no matter what changes are made someone will always be against them for even the smallest of issues.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LSardou</i>
<br />If anyone has seen or hear of Pocket Pets, or any other Mill Broker selling at your local malls, trade shows, or flea markets, PLEASE contact me ASAP. I will provide you with detailed instructions on what you can do to help, and keep yourself protected in the process.

Please email me at director@millbreederproject.com Address, Phone Number, Name of Organization. Also, if you do have comments or know their whereabouts, please do not post that information on the boards. Doing so, will 'tip' them off which in turn will hamper our team of investigators from doing their job in helping us nail them.

Thank you,
LSardou/Director
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> They came to a mall in New Hampshire a few months ago and were selling them on the spot in these tiny cages and told me that they lived off pellet food, never needed vet appointments, needed little care, and they told me that they only needed small cages!

Join the Millbreeder Project!

PP is simply not an organization the majority of the members on this site are going to support. I understand it was a joke, but Glider Gossip really supports rescue over breeding as a whole. I have to agree it's a little silly things blew up over a simple joke, but pinched nerves are bound to happen with this particular audience.

Did you know that there are at least 3 other mill breeders/brokers that make their sales off of using Pocket Pets propaganda and those 3 other mill breeders/brokers are actually worse than you would ever think Pocket Pets is. But since they portray themselves as Pocket Pets, they themselves dont catch the heat...Who does? Pocket Pets does.

Mike McGrath, Steve Larkin and Kathy Woodson are all sitting back laughing and enjoying the heat that Virgil Klunder gets because of them.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by finnessa</i>
<br />PPP and PP are 2 totally different organizations. You responded to my post in which I responded to another that was about Virgil Klunder's sexiness and the response to that. Virgil Klunder is the owner of Perfect Pocket Pets.
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All my research has show the 'Perfect Pocket Pets' and 'Pocket Pets' are the same...both are owned by Virgil Klunder.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rowangel</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by finnessa</i>
<br />PPP and PP are 2 totally different organizations. You responded to my post in which I responded to another that was about Virgil Klunder's sexiness and the response to that. Virgil Klunder is the owner of Perfect Pocket Pets.
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All my research has show the 'Perfect Pocket Pets' and 'Pocket Pets' are the same...both are owned by Virgil Klunder.
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I think you missed where Newby(lol) said this accurately correcting your misunderstanding of companies.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Mike McGrath, Steve Larkin and Kathy Woodson are all sitting back laughing and enjoying the heat that Virgil Klunder gets because of them.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

These have been around for a while and were not professionally produced but represent the top ten lies from mill breeders:

Overview: Debunking Sugar Glider Mill Breeder Lies


Mill Breeder Lie 1 - "They are Teddy Bears"


Mill Breeder Lie 2 - Impulse Buy Venues OK


Mill Breeder Lie 3 - Gliders Get along with Dogs


Mill Breeder Lie 4 - Pellets are a Real Diet


Mill Breeder Lie 5 - You Can Potty Train Sugar Gliders


Mill Breeder Lie 6 - Sugar Gliders Don't Bite Deep


Mill Breeder Lie 7 - Sugar Gliders Thrive on being Alone


Mill Breeder Lie 8 - There are no Legit Sugar Glider Rescues


Mill Breeder Lie 9: FRAUD! (Fake Sugar Glider Review Site).org


MILL BREEDER LIE #10 - Heat Rocks are OK for Sugar Gliders

Thank you, Ed.

There are those who like to differentiate between mill breeders and mill brokers. As if somehow, if you don't personally breed the gliders, profiting off of their abuse is somehow ok?

So, to that end, I'd just like to say - the videos linked do apply to mill Breeders and mill brokers! All of them. I personally could not single out one of the big mill brokers as being "better" than the others. Be it McGrath or Larkin or Pocket Pets - they are all equally responsible for to problems.

Alden, you are so right. Millbrokers and millbreeders work hand in hand and should be frowned upon equally. Without Millbrokers, there would be no need for millbreeders.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by valkyriemome</i>
<br />Thank you, Ed.

There are those who like to differentiate between mill breeders and mill brokers. As if somehow, if you don't personally breed the gliders, profiting off of their abuse is somehow ok?

So, to that end, I'd just like to say - the videos linked do apply to mill Breeders and mill brokers! All of them. I personally could not single out one of the big mill brokers as being "better" than the others. Be it McGrath or Larkin or Pocket Pets - they are all equally responsible for to problems.
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I agree.