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moorie Glider  131 Posts quote:
Originally posted by mel2mdl
HPW is used by Peggy Brewster, has been checked with vets & used in Australia for years. Peggy has beautiful, healthy gliders.
Is Peggy the one who wrote the book warning of the dangers of wooden cages and splinters? TBH Jett, I've seen so many diets with so much supplementation it's ridiculous! This is one of the reasons I just won't use any of the Leadbeater mods. Yep, that is the Peggy they are speaking of...
Some photos from our members Jett Face Hugger     Australia 681 Posts This is all the info on Dr Mc Donald. Debra McDonald is the director of Demac Wildlife Nutrition and the chief nutritionist for Dr Mac’s Organic Origins scientific bird diets. A member of the Veterinarian Practitioners Registration Board of Victoria, she will speak on avian nutrition at the convention. She has a strong interest in natural health and has a qualification in herbal medicine as well as a science degree majoring in pharmacology and botany. Her first class honours degree in fatty acid chemistry was followed by PhD studies in the field of wildlife nutrition. After a 10-year career in the Australian zoo industry, her posting as assistant nutritionist with the Zoo Nutrition Centre at the Bronx Zoo in New York fulfilled a long-term desire for a career as a zoo nutritionist. Since her return to Australia in 2001 she has worked as a consultant nutritionist, concentrating her efforts on avian nutrition and she is recognised internationally as one of few specialists in pet and aviary bird nutrition. Debra established the Avian Health and Conservation Research Initiative (AHCRI) in 2002 and recently released her own Dr Mac’s Organic Origins line of scientific bird diets that are certified to be organic. Debra is working towards the establishment of a zoo research and training facility that she described as “Hogwarts meets the Crocodile Hunter”. Debra has spoken at numerous avicultural forums and has written for many publications. The calcivet and soluvet is available to order on the net the advance dog chow is a high grade hard dog food and the pet loaf is a meat loaf type thing that could be substituted for cooked chicken. One of the members from GG has been dveloping this diet for the US and has the cereal figured out along with the sources of some of the other stuff. I will pm her to share her info. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts This begs the question: Exactly how much is too much and exactly how little is too little? Does anyone here have empirical scientific evidence based on multiple repeatable studies on this subject? Necropsies are not conclusive because they are singular and the result of individual mortality. The Australian zoo diets garner credibility because they are the oldest, but if you take a close look some of the ingredients are a bit obscure - especially the fresh blossums. I would like to try the Healesville diet if I can get some advice from the nutritionsits there on how to put an North American ingredient list together. The HPW powder (not the "diet") hails from Australia and the powder has suppliments in it already. One of our vets has over a dozen kangaroos on her ranch and has used HPW. Also, we are trying the HPW "diet" out on some runts and preggies starting this month. I will let you guys know how it works. This is not scientific per se, but I am taking before and after pictures (I can't do that for their livers....). I guess since we are lacking any real scientific evidence on this diet subject, perhaps for now the health and longevity of our individual gliders is the only anectdotal (no-scientific) evidence we have. It is sad that there is not enough critical mass in this community to commission a proper study. That would end all the guessing (I guess??). We are just ever so thankful to have two colonies of what we beleive are healthy gliders (except for an outside acquired new runt). We have been using our own diet based on the "popular knowledge" of published protein and Ca:ph ratios - none of which have been proven. This after trying a few "popular" diets that the gliders just would not eat. Now we are ready to try another "somebody elses" diet. We are on a search for the truth. If any of you have the TRUTH (not just bluster), we'd be happy to latch on to it. Eric C Retired  TX, USA 2322 Posts quote:
Originally posted by mel2mdl
Off topic a bit, but Bourbon has answered any and all questions about her diet from me, including nutritional analysis.
I'm sorry, but I have to call you on that. Where was that information published? I have never seen it, and I've asked many people, Bourbon included on many occasions, and have never gotten an answer. Please do not respond with the information that Randy complied a few years ago. That information is ex post facto with regard to Bourbon's initial claims, and is largely irrelevant because of it's errors. Regarding the claims Bourbon has made that BML was designed and tested with the help of a veterinary nutritionist, I pose the following questions. Who? When? Where? Can you provide the results of the tests? I only ask for proof, and it should not be my burden to provide it. That is simply not how science works. And for that matter, that's not even how our legal system works. Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy Australia 1168 Posts quote:
Originally posted by mel2mdl
So again, instead of diet bashing, what are you feeding? Would you mind sharing the research and developement that went into the diet you are using? I am really curious and would like to know.
Off topic a bit, but Bourbon has answered any and all questions about her diet from me, including nutritional analysis. The Ca:P ratio is way high, which is to offset the corn given nightly. Not a huge fan of corn, but she has given this information freely and numerous times.
Since when was asking for more details and explanations on a diet, diet bashing? People are keen to know the research and background of the diets I use (which by the way I share in chat anytime to anyone that asks but now I'm wondering why as it seems to be the "trend" to be as secretive as possible  ), but not once has ANYONE shared the background and research & nutritional ratios of their diets with me.I ask fair questions however and it's called "diet bashing". Seems a bit one sided to me. I thought the bee pollen was very heavy handed in comparison to what is normally recommended and that is why I asked about a nutritional analysis to see how it fits into the diet. I would love to see how it has been worked and possibly see how the analysis intergrated these amounts seamlessly into the formula. Without seeing this data, I am having difficulties understanding why so much is fed. That is not bashing, but wanting to understand how a diet works and why this amount is fed. I think it's a very fair question and one I asked you, as from your posts, you seem to research everything thoroughly for your gliders, and would not have changed diets without having that information. You are the first person I have come across that have been privvy to the official nutritional analysis on BML. When other people ask, they are told it's packed away somewhere.You are very, very lucky. I guess you wouldn't share this info too or is that pushing my luck too far?  Cheers Ko Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy Australia 1168 Posts Lucky I can see where you are coming from here and fair enough. It is your own business when someone like yourself experiments and researches in an obvious attempt to better their glider's diet in the privacy of their home. You would also be responsible for the health of your own gliders and again that's your choice and none of anyone else's business. You will also probably agree though, if you share this information with people on a forum say, then you would be willing to explain the reasonings for decisions which is what I have seen you do. You are honest with what you have done, and that's commendable,and the best of all, you are sharing and not telling. You are also open and saying it's home research not scientific. On the other hand my real concern is not people like you sharing general diet information in your openly honest quest for better diets but the people that are basically developing diets for the public to use as a "recommended diet". They should be responsible enough to share the information, and be prepared to be accountable for it's research simply because they are involving the health of potentially thousands of gliders. They put it out there then they should be able to answer questions without yelling "diet bashing". I guess that is what annoys me with some diets. They are quick to push as proven or recommended, but then clam up with sources of research,nutritional analysises etc are requested. It's all stuff that should be freely available and if they don't want to share, fair enough but it should be a personal diet not a recommended or proven one. I have seen people ask very basic questions such as why was apple juice subsituted for water in BML, and either get no reply or told "it's too technical to explain". It's a very valid question but one I have never seen answered by the source. What would happen if a commercial glider food was brought out with no nutritional analysis on the side of the pack? Do you really think that the manufacturers would expect people to use it without this info? See where I am coming from now? Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy Australia 1168 Posts LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts Sure KO I see where you are coming from and I always did. We ask a lot of questions and try what seems resonable. I am partial to the Healsville program for its simplicity and longevity but we are unsure if an equivalent can be made here. I am doing some research on that. The HPW "diet" is kind of new but as you point out the HPW powder isn't. I mentioned that one of the vets at the place we go has lots of marsupials on her ranch and has used it and other high protein powders. The long term effects of too much or too little of something will be hard to prove outside of a scientific study. I mean unless you stick to one diet or one extreme, it would be hard to establish the cause of mortality after a (long) life. For now, we are trying to keep the "generic" ratios in check and on the surface it is not hard to do the "generic" ratios using the HPW diet. Maybe the twice-weekly suppliments could throw that off, but I spoke to Peggy and she admits that you don't have to use Glideraide exclusively anyway. So with great latitude in "mixed veggies" and "mixed fruit" the only thing really controversial I can see in this diet is the heaps of bee pollen. At least that's from a natural source... Maybe we will discover that we can use less bee pollen... Anyway, I can see how less diligent glider owners can be easily mislead or go down a dangerous path. And I can see how taking what we say out of context could mislead. But Gail and I are not going to pretend to know nothing and be silent for fear of misleading people. We have no problem giving gentle advice to new owners like: You need to cut out the preservatives, or you need to offer more protein... And if someone uses the same foods we are on their gliders I don't feel bad about that at all because all of ours seem happy and healthy and nothing we feed them is outrageous or all that controversial anyway. We all have a responsibility to search for the truth, ask a lot of questions and to learn. Look at my posts on powders, supplements, etc. and I am always asking what the ingredients are. When we mix up food, we look up the calcium, phosphorus and other mineral and vitamin content of the foods we are using so we can offer the "generic" ratios the best we can. I think we are ahead of the game doing that versus popular diets anyway, but we are going to give the HPW diet a try. If they eat it and like it and seem to flourish, maybe we will keep using it. If not, we will go back to our "kitchen sink." I shared our feeding regimen with the vets office and we got no red flags. And I asked about all the ratios and confirmed they are only guidelines and generic. I was told variety is important and I was told that my gliders looked healthy - even the runts I took in because they were not as fat as the others... I will continue to share what I learn, but holy cow I don't want to post disclaimers. This is a public forum and people need to exercise their own due diligence in vetting what they hear and asking others to confirm it or debunk it. Rach Face Hugger 626 Posts I found this feeding and nutrition for sugar gliders and thought it interesting I use small carnivore or as its also know as insectivore from wombaroo it has 34% protien and is sold for animals such as suggies, these are supposedly the equivilant products in the US Commercial small carnivore or insectivore mix: such as Mazuri Insectivore Diet-5MK8 or Insectivore-Fare by Reliable Protein Products. I also use nectar from wombaroo Prepared commercial nectar mix: A commercial mix, which is fortified with vitamins and minerals (Nekton-Lori or Avico Gliderade), and mixed with water. So maybe in the translation us aussies have thought glideraide to be something different when in may just be nectar with a different name. Anita Rae Glider USA 149 Posts Is there anyone who can Americanize these measurments. LOL Sorry! I failed math. Also, the Sanctuary diet says "This mix needs to be made fresh on a daily basis. Remaining contents of each day to be discarded" So that means that you can't make it ahead. Bummer! I love the necter recipe because most necters are based on recipes for bird and are nothing more than sugar water. Even most of the stuff you buy, if you look on the label, it's just sugar water. On one of the bird sites it says the calcivet contain magnesium, which would be a good thing but when I went to Vetafarms (the manufacturer) it doesn't say anything about magnesium. One of my concerns with most of the diets is the amount of honey. Expecially the PML which calls for 1 1/2 cup. That's a lot. We seem to be seeing gliders with diabetes these days. The other thing I worry about is the source of vitamin A. It's my understanding that the vitamin A needs to come from betacaroteen to reduce liver toxicity. One thing we can't deny is that a glider's appearance seems to change with the HPW. I've seen before and after pictures of gliders whos coats thicken and tails get bushier after a few months on the HPW. That makes me wonder if there isn't something going on there that is right. I hope we can keep this discussion going. It's always good to share ideas. Now for my wish list: I want it nutritious I want it convenient (intant would be great) I want to be able to travel with it I want all my gliders to like it. Without me having to starve the to get them to eat it. LOL is that asking too much? LOL
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