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LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts     TX, USA 5266 Posts Not so fast. While some of you may not have heard about any references to wild fruits in their diets, I have. And that's why I happened to mention it. Also, for the record, I did not say they ate vegetables in natural habitat. I said: "..., in their natural habitat, gliders eat blossums, fruits, berries, tree sap, etc. We replace these in captivity mostly with fruits and veggies." There is nothing at all erroneous in a mention of fruits in their native habitat. As a point of fact there are many native rainforests fruits and there are numerous references to gliders and their close kin eating them. For example: According to the Queensland (Australia) Environmental Protection Agency's paper on "Animals of Walkabout Creek": (sugar gliders) "They eat a wide variety of insects, favouring wattle nectar and sap. Depending on the season, that can eat acacia gum, insects, spiders, nectar, honeydew, manna, fungi, FRUITS, and pollen" [my emphasis on fruits] Also, according to Australia's Department of Sustainability and Environment, their forest fact sheet # ISSN 1440-2262 says: "In the evening, nocturnal marsupials such as Common Ringtail Possums, Sugar Gliders and Greater Gliders move through the canopy in search of gum, FRUIT and leaves." [my emphasis on fruit] Some of these native fruiting plants of the forest include: Strangler Fig (Ficus destruens) Forest mangoes The fruit of the 'Black Palm', Normanbya normanbya Fruits such as the 'Black bean' pod (Castanospermum australe) Davidson's Plum Hard Quandong Brush Cherry Black Apple Zig Zag Vine If you are interested in knowing more about fruits occuring naturally in Australian rainforests, see this book: Cooper, W. and W.T. Cooper (1994) 'Fruits of the rain forest: a guide to fruits in Australian tropical rain forests.' Geo. 326 pp. Cribb, A.B. & Cribb, J.W. (1975) 'Wild food in Australia'. Fontana, Sydney. 240 pp. Here is a picture of some native AU rainforest fruits in case any of you are hungry: 
Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy  Australia 1168 Posts Fruit in a wild glider's diet is purely dependant on location, season and abundancy. It is still considered something they will eat if found, but not an integral part of their diet. Location is a big factor especially as you in particular mention tropical rainforest fruits. Whilst sugar gliders are spread across a large range of habitats, including rainforests, dry forests and woodlands ,sub-alpine etc, they are more observed in subtropical than tropical rainforests. This is also dependent on the abundance of certain acacias which these gliders feed on. If the acacias don't permeate the subtropical or tropical rainforests, neither do the sugar gliders. Many of the tropical rainforest fruits are berries of some form or another. As I said though, most glider habitats are not tropical rainforests but we do have some native berries and fruits to varying degrees in other parts of Australia(you can walk for hours and hours in bushland and never see anything resembling fruits or berries though). It's also dependent on season and whether of course the native berries are actually edible. Some are definitely not. Still in all its not a staple of their wild diet. The second quote you gave Lucky from the Victoria's Department of Sustainability and Environment. The fact sheet is applicable to possums and gliders. Now possums definitely love their fruit so there reference might be there mostly for them as on another page on their website its says of sugar glider's diet:- DIET: Principally invertebrates caught in and under bark on tree trunks, as well as sugar exudates from wattles and eucalypts, gathered by chewing grooves into the bark. The species also feeds on nectar, pollen and other sugar exudates. This is where the vet I mentioned is coming from. A lot of the glider's natural diet comes from insects and vegetation so therefore said, to go back to basics with a captive diet and include more insects and more green leafy vegetable. I could see his point of view of this and must admit my gliders are eating heaps of fresh vegetables now, barely touching fruit unless they want "dessert" or a "snack" That isn't to say that there is nothing wrong with fruit at all. I was very interested to see though my group of gliders who only ate fruit and a bit of sweetcorn (refused frozen carrot, beas etc), suddenly became salad junkies overnight with the addition of more vegetables into the diet. It's an interesting observation at that. jaxie.owls Starting Member 1 Posts is it okay to sprinkle some glider-cal calcium powder into the gliderade? i have noticed that when i sprinkle it on top of their food, my gliders shake it off. Anita Rae Glider USA 149 Posts I am sorry that it took me so long to get back to this post. Jaxie.owls, I'm not sure what is in the calcium powder but I have heard that glideraid is nothing more than gatoraid with some extra sugar in it. Now I don't use glideraid so I've never looked into it that closely. quote:
As for the use of honey in diets, it is simply digested and regurgitated nectar from flowers. A nutritional comparison between nectar and honey is complicated since the nutritional content of nectar isn't readily known. I haven't found a source for that information yet.
Thanks Eric, but it's the amount of honey that we are giving these gliders that I am concerned about. Just like we humans are starting to pay for our excess use of sugar with dabetes, we are also starting to see that trend in gliders. OK, so gliders do eat a lot of sap. Now I've never seen acasia or eucalyptus sap, but most saps that I have seen are thin, and lightly sweet...nothing like the thick carbohydrate rich honey that we are using. so I'm thinking it probably takes many months for a glider to eat enough sap to equal 1 1/2 cups of sugars in the honey. Here in the states, we kind of think of edible sap as the stuff that we pour on our pancakes. But the natural form of maple syrup is 40 gallons of sap boiled down to make one gallon. The same is true with most necters that I know of. When I was a kid, we used to break the stem off of honey suckle blossems and suck out the honey. It was also very thin and lightly sweet; and you could probably suck honey suckle 24/7 and not get 1 1/2 cups of nectar. Trust me it isn’t worth the effort.  KO, I am amazed that yours will eat fresh and leafy greens. I really have to try that. I always thought that they preferred frozen veggies. I have given mine frozen spinach and frozen broccoli (mostly because of the mushy texture of the frozen) but if they will eat fresh, I think it would be better for them. So that brings me back to the fruit and veggie question. Most US diets come in roughly four parts. 1 part some sort of honey/vitamin mix, 1 part protein source, 1 part fruits, and 1 part veggies. That makes 50% of their diet fruits and veggies. And those veggies are normally mostly corn, peas, and carrots. Again, these veggies metabolize as sugars. I’m sure that a wild glider that forages for food needs more carbs than a caged animal but we are flooding our gliders with carbs. And yes, now that I have slammed all of these diets, hehe, that is exactly what I have been feeding too. I just think we still have a lot to learn. Jett, excuse me for hijacking this post, I guess I have taken it way off topic. If you want, I will start a new topic.
mel2mdl Face Hugger 407 Posts Okay - took me awhile to get back as I was getting frustrated. On the HPW diet - here is the breakdown of all the vitamins, amounts, etc in the diet (without glideraide or fruits and veggies included.) Mineral/ Vitamin Amt. Units A- 116.000 iu Alanine 155030.450 mg Arginine 146525.500 mg Aspartic 271137.250 mg Biotin (Vit H) 21000.000 mg Boron 0.500 mg Calcium 577.245 mg Carbohydrate 429600.000 mg Cholesterol 0.639 mg Choline 21.648 mg Clycine 0 134000.000 mg Copper 0.325 mg Cystine 18465.300 mg Fat 19550.000 mg Fiber 1550.000 mg Fluoride 35.550 iu Folate 30.600 iu Folic Acid 0.175 mg Glutamic 292591.500 mg Glycine 35.550 mg Histidine 69505.100 mg Inositol 14.000 mg Iodine 21000.000 mg Iron 5.900 mg Isoleucine 115040.650 mg Leucine 189050.850 mg Lysine 183220.650 mg Magnesium 52.215 mg Manganese 1.825 mg Methionine 47005.100 mg Niacin 1500.600 mg Pantothenic Acid 0.300 mg Phenylalanine 118555.950 mg Phosphorus 466.667 mg Potassium 483.701 mg Proline 253457.500 mg Protein 40500.000 mg Riboflavin 500.500 mg Selenium 4.524 iu Selenium 5250.000 mg Serine 145030.450 mg Sodium 92.089 mg Sugars 417000.000 mg Thiamin 1.050 mg Threonine 118520.400 mg Tryptophan 25020.400 mg Tyrosine 69540.650 mg Valine 190545.750 mg Vitamin A 0.350 iu Vitamin A 732.000 mg Vitamin B12 5250.000 iu Vitamin B12 0.000 mg Vitamin B3 7.000 mg Vitamin B5 2.625 mg Vitamin B6 0.573 mg Vitamin C 509.550 mg Vitamin D 60.400 iu Vitamin D3 3502.640 mg Zinc 2.443 mg Sorry - don't know how to attach an excel document. :~) Just sharing - these are my calculations subject to what information I could find and my math. (I did have someone check my math.) Also - this is for the entire batch - about 5 cups. Don't know how much per serving. Eric - I trust Bourbon and the replies I've got from her. I don't save emails/pm's past a few days. I know, how convinent - I can hear the response already. :~) I also trust Peggy (Srlb) If she says to me in email that she checked with a vet when developing this diet, or before using it, then I think she did. I don't feel the need to double check her work. Could be wrong, but my gliders are happy! Thanks! mel2mdl Face Hugger 407 Posts quote:
Originally posted by mel
I also agree that the average vet may not be aware enough of the sugar glider needs. It seems vets often work with those rescuers and such who have more experience on issues like SM. I would be inclined to trust the long time rescuers on diet rather than the average vet.
Which both Bourbon and Peggy are. That's why I trust them and the help I have gotten from them. (And I'm not going to get into a discussion about Bourbon or Peggy - do your own research on them, don't quote WSGN!  They have been working with gliders for a very long time.) Anyways, I had stated that I had the breakdown for HPW, so was providing this. The Zoo diet is beyond me, quite frankly, and mixing the nectar every night... Also, I wouldn't know where to began ordering the Soluvet suppliments and such called for. I'm sure it is an excellent diet, but just to complicated for me - and I couldn't handle 'fly larvae' - not even for my gliders! No way, uh-uh! (I'm terrified of maggots!!!! Worse than roaches!!!!) I prefer the HPW over BML because it doesn't have as much added suppliments (read Calcium) as BML (although if my gliders were still eating that, I probably wouldn't have switched) despite the bee pollen. Like I said earlier, in all my research, I could find not one article about overdosing on bee pollen - granted that was with mice, rats and humans, but no articles cover suggies right now.  Hopefully, the death database will be up and running soon so we can all see the results and try to find what is best for our babies. In the meantime, I will let others experiment with their suggie's health in trying to figure out diets and use one from someone I trust and that my gliders like. The diets I choose have been tested on gliders and researched by people smarter than me. (Or so I've been told, and, again, I trust the people who told me this.) Peggy has only had gliders since late 2003 and does not do rescue. In fact, she has alot of colored gliders and breeds. There are lots of people here who have had more glider experience than her. mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts quote:
Originally posted by mel2mdl
The Zoo diet is beyond me, quite frankly, and mixing the nectar every night... Also, I wouldn't know where to began ordering the Soluvet suppliments and such called for. I'm sure it is an excellent diet, but just to complicated for me - and I couldn't handle 'fly larvae' - not even for my gliders! No way, uh-uh! (I'm terrified of maggots!!!! Worse than roaches!!!!)
Hopefully, the death database will be up and running soon so we can all see the results and try to find what is best for our babies. In the meantime, I will let others experiment with their suggie's health in trying to figure out diets and use one from someone I trust and that my gliders like. The diets I choose have been tested on gliders and researched by people smarter than me. (Or so I've been told, and, again, I trust the people who told me this.)
Eww! Maggots!!! You're right and I can't stand roaches!!!  I must say I would not want to mix the nectar nightly either. I hadn't even looked that much into the diet beyond the needed ingredients. So the death database is down?  Quote from Anonymous: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peggy has only had gliders since late 2003 and does not do rescue. In fact, she has alot of colored gliders and breeds. There are lots of people here who have had more glider experience than her. Just some thoughts: I do NOT know Peggy but depending on the person and their research along with experience and open mindness they can be smart enough to be great advisors so long as they don't think or project they know-it-all and make themselves clear for the newbies sake as well as those trying to analyze for themselves. If I may...KISSED is a good example. She has had gliders under a year and with her experiences and research she has learned what might take others years or never to learn. She is also humble with her knowledge. And on the other hand I have seen some with supposed years experience give harmful info without thorough explanation for a better understanding to others.  Eric C Retired  TX, USA 2322 Posts Thank you for posting this information. The following, "Sugars 417000.000 mg" catches my eye. That's roughly a pound of sugar. To be more precise, 0.919 pounds. I just measured and weighed two cups of sugar on a shipping scale, and two cups equal 0.84 pounds. Approximating at 2.19 cups of sugar in a 5 cup mixture, that means the HPW mix is roughly 44% sugar. By comparison, pure honey, or at least the honey I have from Albertson's, the local grocery store, is roughly 75% sugar. Honey, world wide, is fairly consistent with sugar amounts. The variation is fairly small. The Healesville diet's nectar mix is 35% honey. That translates to a sugar percentage of 26%. In the Healesville diet, the serving portion of the nectar is a little more than a half a teaspoon per glider, not Tablespoon. quote:
Originally posted by mel2mdl
Eric - I trust Bourbon and the replies I've got from her. I don't save emails/pm's past a few days. I know, how convinent - I can hear the response already.
I'm sure you realize that science is based on the principles of verifiability and of open discussion of what empirical data means, and that by making claims of scientific integrity it is the responsibility of the one making those claims to prove it. Since you've been able to accomplish what many people have considered impossible, I think many people will appreciate you getting that information again so that we may all see it. jungleflockmom Glider 175 Posts To me, bee pollen is more of a whole and nutritious food than a supplement. www.envirobee.com/beepollen3.htm
www.envirobee.com/beepollen3.htm
In searching for the composition of bee pollen, I found discrepancies in amounts reported from source to source irrespective of type of flowers pollen is harvested from. jungleflockmom Glider 175 Posts I feed scooops rather than granules. lol LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts wow Ahsaehr that's good to hear. I guess what we are offering suppliment wise is conservative then. We offer a pinch calcium, nutra-glider and acacia gum (not really a vitamin or mineral anyway) only once or twice a week mixed in with fruits and veggies. Maybe that's too little, but based on what I've heard here, a pinch between 13 gliders once or twice a week is probably not too much. Poop-wise its pretty much OK. Firm, but with some give, mostly dark or light brown. Two of the new acquisitions were runny for a while and the vet put them on antibiotics for a week and now their stools seem more firm. That said, even though they all eat the same thing, their stools are not always the same. Our vet said: "well even humans who eat the same thing don't have the same stools so don't worry too much unless they can't poop or if it's too watery." Of course, this discussion has not borne any true guidance "by the numbers," but you've taken a shot at that and I thank you. Thank goodness we have veterinarians.
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