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roflmbo2 Glider    IL, USA 118 Posts http://www.onlineconversion.com/
This is the converter I use to make Healesville into something I can cook with.......LOL~ Eric, thanks for locating the pet loaf for me........I hadn't figured out where to get that yet! http://www.wholesomebabyfood.com/cereals.htm
This is where I got the idea to make my baby food rather than using the US highly fortified with Iron cereals. I also buy my bee pollen, calcivet and soluvet from a seller on Ebay named Rhonda's aviary. She is in the US. I just typed in the name of each item under search until I found a seller that had all that I needed. Also I would be very wary of buying alfalfa sprouts. They are easily contaminated with Salmonella and can not be used in food service because of that. They use the canned stuff. I imagine growing your own sprouts on a smaller scale would lessen your chances of the salmonella issue. I do think we all need to agree we can disagree. It is so tiresome rereading all the same "my diet is better than your diet" banter. Presenting things on an educational front certainly would improve a person's chances of getting their point across. I do think it is fair to question a diet. We are all hear to learn. Thank goodness we all graduated from our first cookbook. Yeah it was a good one but there is so much more out there that is better. Hope this helps! LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts  TX, USA 5266 Posts Oh Anita, is that why I was going crazy??? You're saying a grain is a unit of measurement, not the actual weee little grain of pollen? I actually posted a question on that before, but the diet we are using calls for common kitchen measurements for the pollen so I am less worried now... Also, roflmbo2, I understand what you are saying about agreeing to disagree. I don't mind the banter and puffery myself as long as it doesn't get mean-spirited. We learn a lot going back and forth and hearing what everyone has to say. It is a public forum, so there is no set ettiquette. We all have to kind of tolerate each other because we are human and some of us go on a rant sometimes. Anyway, rants or not, we learn so much just by sharing, defending, bragging, whatever you want to call it. I mean if we don't want to hear all the quabbling about diet, we can tune to another "channel" where the topic is not about diet. Sometimes I get tired of explaining or defending or even trying to help someone new because of the onslaught of contrary opinions, but I guess that goes in cycles depending on my resilience that day... We are all truly students of this science we call sugar gliders and we are all still learning. Ko Fuzzy Wuzzy  Australia 1168 Posts I checked the Healesville Sanctuary diet list and they actually state 5 pollen grains not 5 grains of pollen. They also recommend pollen by weight for larger animals. ie. a squirrel glider is fed 0.4g of pollen grains a week, leadbeaters possum 0.2g of pollen grains in comparison to the smaller animals ranging from sugar gliders(5 pollen grains) to the tiny feathertail glider (1 pollen grain). When you consider these are the amounts fed weekly not nightly, you can see it is such a tiny amount compared to the HPW diet. I was quite surprised when someone went away and said that the HPW diet was being bashed and flamed. I don't think any arguments are happening here but healthy discussion and genuine queries. I think it's quite fair to ask, why there would be such a huge difference in amounts of pollen being fed in the two diets. If someone comes up with a valid reason, then that would be beneficial to everyone and I really can't see a problem with anyone asking these sorts of questions. Call it a group learning experience for the want of a better phrase. As Peggy Brewer (the lady behind HPW diet in US) says in her recent book on sugar gliders - quote:
"I personally use a diet that is currently used in many of the Australian Zoos. It has been used in Australia for many years but has just recently become popular here in the United States. It is the closet thing to the original leadbeaters mix."
I am still trying to find any zoo in Australia that uses the HPW diet to ask them these questions but I will keep on searching as we don't have that many zoos here and not all have sugar gliders. Most are feeding diets that were originally developed by the Healesville Sanctuary (ie. the one that used the original leadbeaters mix). I am also pretty sure a lot of people don't realise the original leadbeater's mix was developed in conjunction with the Healesville Sanctuary & Des Hackett and over the years with further study has changed very slightly and been renamed "nectar mix" The name change was simply because they feed a number of their marsupials this mix now which is only a part of an overall diet. jungleflockmom Glider 175 Posts quote:
Originally posted by roflmbo2
http://www.onlineconversion.com/
Also I would be very wary of buying alfalfa sprouts. They are easily contaminated with Salmonella and can not be used in food service because of that. They use the canned stuff. I imagine growing your own sprouts on a smaller scale would lessen your chances of the salmonella issue.
I don't think they mean the alfalfa sprouts we buy at the market. I think they mean sprouted alfalfa which would be alfalfa seeds soaked over night in water then rinsed 3x daily w/water and acv until just a very small tail is showing. It only takes a day or two to sprout alfalfa. They are most nutritious when the tail is very very small. Refrigerate after sprouting. mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts quote:
Originally posted by Ahsaehr
I was thinking. Many people want to keep pellet food in their glider's cage although they have them on the BML, HPW ,PML, or whatever...
Wouldn't this be a common cause of over supplementing since MOST (not all) pelleted food on the market has the vitamins in them? The only diet that I've ever heard had "all the vitamins and nutrients a glider needs" is the BML, since it was so carefully constructed and all...the rest of them I haven't heard as glorified. (Perhaps since the BML is so carefully made Bourbon could assist us about the "how much is too much" question. Someone should ask her.) So, if BML has all the vitamins a glider needs in a day all the people who feed BML not exactly by the strict fruits/veggie guideline and also give pelleted food, their gliders are at a higher risk of over supplementing?
I'm also going to assume that gliders aren't like humans in that we can only take in 100% of the vitamins we need, the rest is released as waste, not to say that isn't bad for the digestive tract and other bodily parts.
BML is intended to be a diet as is and recommended to feed as is. Any substitutions or additions or deletions are NOT the BML diet. This is why it is important to keep that clear. All TOO OFTEN people CLAIM to be feeding the BML diet plan and when you get down to it they are NOT. Many people confuse the BML diet plan to only consist of the blend. These mistakes are common. It is unfair to the true results of ANY diet plan to suggest otherwise. While this particular vet relates the calcification issue to the BML diet, I would question this. How many ACTUALLY ARE feeding the diet plan as intended. I would find it amazing that he actually clarified that and got "AS IS" claims. Most OFTEN people ALTER the plan when questioned. Only after inquiry come to realize they are NOT feeding the plan as is. So absolutely this could lead to oversupplementing without DOUBT. Since there aren't many experienced sugar glider vets I doubt he has a high enough number to make that claim anyway. Speculation is not the same as experience with numbers or a true study which the later is not available. I know of some Rescuers who have been exposed to ALL sorts of problem gliders who use the BML to rehabilitate. I don't see a vet able to accurately dispute those numbers. Just some added thoughts. Eric C Retired  TX, USA 2322 Posts Mel, I think that's a cop out. If people are feeding what they believe to be BML, then it is a flaw of the diet to be so unstable to cause such health problems. If you truly believe that the problem is with people altering the diet and not the diet itself, then you need to do some research yourself. The BML diet has had many "official" modifications throughout the years. By your reasoning each of those should have been renamed. You've often made comments that BML is "proven" because so many rescuers have used it successfully. Who are they and how long have they used it? Rescuers generally can't afford to create BML on a large scale. I only know of two, Jaime and AngieH from hopeforgliders.org. Jaime hasn't even done this a year, and Angie is just over 3 years into this. A lot of people that flock to this forum to extol the virtues of BML don't even use it, and only do so because they're friends with her. And for the list I'm sure you're capable of providing, since you often mention all the "rescues", please provide which of the many versions of BML they're using. As for the currently promoted BML, the so called "back to basics" version, it is not the original recipe and is not what Bourbon claims to have been tested or researched by a nutritionist or vet. This diet is fairly new, and promotions for it began in early 2006. That is hardly any sort of track record. anjuli503 Face Hugger USA 823 Posts mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts Why do you want to chime in with "copout"? I am NOT trying to be insulting here. Why are you? I could say I think your remarks are a "copout" for insulting Bourban and your history together rather than what I have ACTUALLY said. It is ashame that on this site BML cannot be discussed but "flamed" for using. I'm not sure I understand your second remark about the stability of the diet. It's simple use it as is. I truly believe MOST people misuse the diet. EVERY time I have questioned a person's use of the diet they INDEED misuse the diet. This has been without exaggeration. It has been EVERY time. I even saw a post once on sugarglider.net where those that responded had comments like "everyone" alters the diet. Well I don't. I have no problems thus far. As far as the versions of BML you refer to I know this is one of your issues with Bourban and I'm NOT the one to answer that history of it. I am SIMPLY stating the reality of it's use/misuse. However I will give it a try. It is my understanding a diet was created and altered later for one reason or other and found to be an issue with altering so back to basics. As for as the rescuers I refer to I'm not going to throw their names out there for additional flaming. Oh heck no. I appreciate the "shared" experiences. It would be their option to join in on this subject. I don't THINK they do because they have no time to debate with the constant newbies or skeptics that are ongoing. It is absolutely correct that feeding BML on a large scale is expensive. It is my understanding it is used to rehabilitate and on those "problem" gliders. I feel you say that to me as though I am lying. Well that's my assumption and your perrogative. I would be very disappointed if you truly thought so with my history here but again your perrogative. Now I have NO personal history with Bourban other than a railroad which was to help needy gliders. I do NOT stand to "profit" by her friendship or otherwise. What I AM SAYING is that the INTENSE flaming of the BML here is not strictly about the diet and for that I don't appreciate the insults because I use BML or defend the reality of it's use. I think for the safety of gliders it is important to correct the assumed diet. Over supplementing certainly would be an issue as brought up here. There is NO insult intended by pondering the vet's remarks. It would only be a pursuit in the interest of truth. As for as your "issues" with Bourban making public claims of creating the diet along with a vet, nutritionalist or whatever, I agree for the umpteenth time that it should be substantiateed or removed from public view. BUT AGAIN this is NOT what I was speaking about in MY response. If someone is interested in "somebody" contacting Bourban than they should do it. Though it is my understanding she is banned from this site. Dunno. Eric, please do NOT read my own post from your experience of these so called friends of hers. But read them for their own weight. I don't appreciate the outright insinuations directed at me. I am interested in the truth but the truth is most do not use the diet as intended and should be aware of that as it is a danger to oversupplement. And ESPECIALLY if you think there are too many vits to start with. I agree there is hardly an accurate track record both to prove or disprove other than if a long time rescuer who used the diet the same way in that period of time would so choose to offer a scientific study to be done. This brings me to Luckygliders pursuits and my own inquiry of finding a grant, institution, etc. to do a more accurate study in a scientific way. Now then I would certainly contact other persons to inquire interest to support a study. Please refrain from presumptions NOT made in my post. quote:
Originally posted by Eric Coleman
Mel, I think that's a cop out. If people are feeding what they believe to be BML, then it is a flaw of the diet to be so unstable to cause such health problems.
If you truly believe that the problem is with people altering the diet and not the diet itself, then you need to do some research yourself. The BML diet has had many "official" modifications throughout the years. By your reasoning each of those should have been renamed.
You've often made comments that BML is "proven" because so many rescuers have used it successfully. Who are they and how long have they used it? Rescuers generally can't afford to create BML on a large scale. I only know of two, Jaime and AngieH from hopeforgliders.org. Jaime hasn't even done this a year, and Angie is just over 3 years into this. A lot of people that flock to this forum to extol the virtues of BML don't even use it, and only do so because they're friends with her.
And for the list I'm sure you're capable of providing, since you often mention all the "rescues", please provide which of the many versions of BML they're using.
As for the currently promoted BML, the so called "back to basics" version, it is not the original recipe and is not what Bourbon claims to have been tested or researched by a nutritionist or vet. This diet is fairly new, and promotions for it began in early 2006. That is hardly any sort of track record.
Eric is trying to say that the BML "back to basics" is not the back to basics.(not even close to it!) So, who's to say if you are using the diet plan she posted at the very begining, 6 years or more ago before ANY changes, that you are no longer feeding the BML diet plan. What else would you call it? mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts I am now and in my original post speaking of ALTERING THE INTENDED DIET PLAN. Honestly wether it was six yrs ago and the diet of then or presently with the today's version, I am still referring of ALTERING the diet plan as intended. However IF we are to presume someone from 6 yrs ago is feeding the diet AS INTENDED BACK THEN and has been successful all these years I wouldn't presume change it at all and certainly should share that with Bourban. And even if this were the case, which I highly doubt, I would imagine the odds of what has been seen to be a neccesary change in the diet to outweigh that one case. I do not see the "technicalities" to outweigh possible success of the diet plan as opposed to any other diet plan in the US. I do think we need to FAIRLY review the diet as well as any other diet AND we should feel obligated to inform persons of the concerns from deviating from the diet as this diet is one intended to feed AS IS. There is a past post of Bourban's that addressing many of these concerns. I am not advocating what's in the post but it comes from the source. As for VIT D3, I did research some time back and felt satisfied at the time. Mainly what I recall, if accurate, is that it IS neccessary for proper absorption in the BML DIET PLAN not in other diet plans necessarily as Suncoast, for example, has D3 in the ...vionate  So I agree that say,for example, corn not to be good in some diet plans but alright in BML. I'm sorry I don't have the time to research and share my previous findings that made me comfortable with the BML diet plan but I can share a few interesting links or posts. There is a lot of interesting info just on this site about BML from CY, Bourban and even Facehugs, not to for me to presume accuracy on any of their parts but certainly interesting. See next post for links. mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts Posted - Jan 04 2007 : 01:44:53 PMBourbon Glider 159 Posts just popping in real quick then i will be out again..mainly directed to facehugs..you said..(such as most necropsies I have looked at have all had enlarged livers and other organs which points to too high of the vitamin levels...and yes, a few of these have been on the "Back to basics BML" there whole life since they were only between a few months and a year old)there are many reasons for an enlarged liver, the fact is many people i was one of them in the days of yesterday who also believed that liver disease was strickly diet related. although a good vet will tell you that liver disease is usually secondary to many things. just as an enlarged heart and lack of calicum in the system.aflatoxin being the most commonand bacterial infections being next in line.giardia and trichamonasmany gliders, it don't matter what diet you are on, will have these similar problems.also things like potatoes/ sweet potatoes citrus kiwi etc help in the absobtion of iron.. iron is stored in the liver, then the veggies that are switched simple things based on posts that corn and peas are bad.. so those things are switched for things like spinich, kale, broccoli... all of which have higher iron content, and higher ca : ph ratios.. just talking basics herecycy.. eric is right in the changes made in the bml, as my site says we will change the diet as more research becomes available. because I unlike many others out there, am not afraid to move forward as we learn more. the key factor is learning more. the bml has more info out there than any other diet plan at this time. giving others the opportunity to dissect it, cut it apart, and question it. there has been many that looks for reasons it is not healthy.rather than pick up where we are now, and go forward, it is so much easier to totally discredit it, and try to push something that has NOTHING to check for yourselves.I hope when the handful of people that is and has been working to gain more info for the betterment of the gliders are gone, that the next generation can continue to move forward.I hope and pray on a daily basis that the research and search for the bettering rather than the destruction of ones work is continued..as for the diet study that was done there were a lot of things that have to be considered. and Ellen stated that in her work, that diet study tells us all that many more studies need to be done. that is all it says. ellen and her team did a wonderful job with what they had to work with. the fact is as anyone knows the more questions we answer, the more questions we have. as with everything else EVERYTHING needs to be considered. not just one thing.eric one of the things you keep saying is that it is not just the calcium to ph ratios .. you are right.. but look at the "small changes that people make.. exchanging the boiled chicken with the baby food..where the babyfood is 1:1.5 and the boiled chicken is 1:15 huge difference.. for those that replace or add chicken, or egg they have different protein levels not to mention the nutitional aspects all together are different.. but people think because it is protein it is the same.. there is a difference between veggi protein and animal protein. it takes more energy to metabolize euchalyptus that some people are adding to their foods, than it does the honey. but how many gliders really get the 2.5 acres to run and glide in, how many allow their gliders to run up 200 foot trees and forage for their own food at night. how many gliders have to store up the nutrients for a hard winters nap and still go into the turpors?I have the usda nutritional database on my page? why? so others can check things out for themselves, there is no ingredient that the figures are not available for. can you say the same thing about any other diet plan? what is the total nutritional breakdown of exotic nutrition, glider grub? wamberoo? insectavore? find these answers.. who is to say that the bml, nutritional level is any different than pml? if you can't get those figures?we had a simple baseline to begin with, we continued to learn more, we made changes accordingly.each time we learned more there was changes made.. how many of these other diets that are "touted" can say the same? I respect pockets, and i have faith she will move the bar UP on diets, she is still changing hers as well, the more she learns, it too changes.these boards should be about moving forward instead of taking the work of many people and disregarding the forward motions that have been done.the glider community has come a very very long way from when i first got here.and i for one hate to see it get back to where it was. mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts JenJen Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1259 Posts I will be honest..I haven't done any researching in supplementing, or how many gliders have died, due to over supplementing.(though i would LOOOVE to see the death data base) I haven't supplemented my gliders in YEARS. I have tried a few different diets (though, NEVER BML) and have found a diet that I believe to be suitable. Sure I would love to learn more about researched and proven diets, and I enjoy reading everyones posts thus far about them in this topic. I am looking forward to reading about the Healesville Sanctuary Diet. I would also like to add that my two female gliders Moe, and Poe, turned 5 in March this year. I had Poe when she was just 6 weeks oop, and moe was given to me a few months after that from my b/fs sister who got Moe the day after I got Poe. I used to post on glider gossip when I first got my gliders,and continued to do so for years after that, but then, the site was 'down' (for lack of better terms, lol) for a while, and I moved elsewhere. (Just thought I'd give those who don't know me, a little bit of my backround) I am glad this post was opened, and I am happy to see that this isnt a HUGE debate, like all diet posts seem to turn into. I hope this can stay pretty clean and smooth sailing from here, so we can all learn something from each other! Jett Face Hugger Australia 681 Posts Well said JenJen and good to see you around. Many people do not suppliment and still have healthy diets. The visit information gained by Rita and Chris from the St louis Zoo show that they also do not use a nectar mix and cuurently there last Sugar Glider is in it's ninth year. The diet they use is as follows. Purina Cat Chow - 10 grams per day Apples carrots grapes peanuts & almonds Various other fruits & veggies Just thought that some would be interested. LuckyGlider Zippy Glidershorts TX, USA 5266 Posts mel, I have been propigating that "common interpretation" about nuts and blockage. Sadly, I have failed to properly attribute its source. But based on how I came to get that information, I do not doubt the sincerity in which it was conveyed - but I do doubt veracity of due diligence on diagnosis. The basis was an article I read that was authored by a breeder who had a frank discussion on nuts. He very matter-of-factly pointed out that four or five of the gliders he had "experimented" on with nuts all died of intestinal blockage. He went on to say that he only offered one or two a week after that mishap. So this was not a scientific study, but it was an unabashed and frank disclosure from a person purporting to be a breeder who had gliders die on him... Now considering his profession, the cynics and militant anti-breeders amongst us are now thinking: "Well any number of things could have spelled the downfall of those critters so you have to consider the general source." That said, every once and a while, we will offer nuts - and as you probably all know... suggies love them. But I'm just scared to feed more than one or two a week, that's all. Even though the source was a person who could have killed them any number of ways in his "experiments." Jett's post is provacative because it flies in the face of the "common interpretation" so many of us have assimilated through suggie urban legends: That cat food is "bad;" That nuts are "bad," and that grapes are "bad." Clearly we have a lot to learn... :-) But in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At the very best, we are a group of cyclops who can maybe help the newbies not kill their gliders. mel Goofy Gorillatoes TX, USA 2464 Posts quote:
Originally posted by LuckyGlider
Clearly we have a lot to learn... :-) But in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. At the very best, we are a group of cyclops who can maybe help the newbies not kill their gliders.
  JenJen Fuzzy Wuzzy USA 1259 Posts I agree, Purina cat chow, is probably on the bottom of the list, right next to 'friskies'. I know Dick van pattens cat food is REALLY good, and have tried that with great results, with my cats, but have switched back to kirklands, which is a costco brand, and a good quality cat food. No by-product and no corn. I do wonder though, I know some people feed cat food, and I have tried offering a couple pieces to my gliders, and they don't seem to like it much. would rather eat the veggies , and fruits. last night, I offered 4 pieces of kibble, and all were gone by morning time. The dog food I feed, is also a good food and is called Natures recipe farmstand selects, and has dried peas, carrots, cranberries and apples in the mixture, though I did not offer these to the gliders, since they get fresh foods. But, I am wondering what is the main difference between dog food and cat food, besides the percentage of protein? Since I have seen a couple diff diets one using cat food, the other using dog food, I'm wondering why dog or cat food? I also think, that if you're going to offer cat or dog food, that it should be of high quality, and not with corn being first or even second on the ingredient list.
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